136: The Fight Behind the Fight: How Couples Argue About Money Without Saying It

The Fight Behind The Fight

Jessica 0:00

You just had a huge fight with your partner about the dishwasher, or the thermostat, or the vacation they keep putting off, or soccer registration fees. Spoiler, it wasn't about any of those things. Most couple arguments about money are really a disguise. And once you learn how to spot them, you can't unsee it. In today's episode, we are talking about how couples argue about money without talking about money. Stay tuned.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Sugar Daddy Podcast, yo. Learn how to make them pockets grow. Financial freedoms where we grow. Smart investments, money flow.

Jessica 0:39

Welcome back to the Sugar Daddy Podcast. Thank you for joining us today. We are the podcast that helps you put a clear plan in place for your money so you can feel confident and in control of your money. If you've been here before, welcome back. And if you're new, thank you for joining. Babe, what are we talking about today?

Brandon 1:00

So today we are talking about how couples argue about money without actually talking about money.

Jessica 1:08

Ooh, and you know, we've had um some therapists on, some financial therapists, and one of them in particular talked about this and how it shows up in relationships. But we had planned this episode, and then a few days ago, I had like a moment. And so it's actually perfect timing because we all do it. Now, some of us do it more than others. Um, and obviously Brandon and I talk about money all the time.

Brandon 1:35

But we're not immune from the same things that happen to other people necessarily.

Jessica 1:38

No, we are going, we listen, life is expensive. I was laid off. We have two young kids, we have a lot of expenses. Like life is lifing for everybody. So just because we have a financial literacy podcast and Brandon is a licensed financial planner does not mean that we don't have moments where we're like, wow. So I had one of those, I had one of those. I'm not gonna make that sound ever, but no, but you know, like we all we're not, yeah, like you said, we are not immune. And so we wanted to talk about kind of how this shows up in your home or in your relationship and how we want you to take a step back and be like, wait a minute, is this really about the dishwasher? Is this really about the soccer registration fees? Like, what is it really about? Because there is an underlying reason. So today we're gonna help you figure out what that underlying reason is and how these things might be showing up in your relationship. So we're gonna give a couple examples. We'll tell you our most recent example. Um, and then we're gonna get into our dream framework, which if you're new here and you have not heard about our dream framework, stay tuned because it is so good and we are so happy um to be helping have these conversations because they can be really tough for people. So if you are um, you know, having conversations that are like you never help around the house, well, okay, maybe that is rooted in something else, right?

Brandon 3:07

Yeah. Rarely ever is it the specific chore that you're not helping out with that is the root cause of the issue. That's the way that's a lot of people.

Jessica 3:15

Yeah, like you never do laundry. Could be, could be I'm carrying more of the financial and emotional load, and you're making me feel invisible.

Tiny Costs And Trust Issues

Brandon 3:25

Yes, because I mean, that's also even at some times working through if you're earlier on your relationship as compared to if you've been together for a few years, because I've even learned that, you know, from early on in our relationship when it comes to household chores and stuff of that nature, it is more of the emotional load and the decision-making process behind it as well.

Jessica 3:48

Yeah, it's just a lot. Like it is just a lot. If you're fighting over things like, you know, you're the lights are always on, why do you keep touching the thermostat? You're taking showers that are 40 minutes, like you need to shorten your shower. Like if you're constantly bickering over like those small household costs, because they do add up, obviously. Maybe the real conversation behind that is I don't really trust your judgment with money. And these small things prove that I can't trust you.

Brandon 4:17

Yeah, especially in a scenario where one um spouse is making more or significantly more than the other, because, like, for example, Jess makes more than I do. So she carries more.

Jessica 4:26

Not right now because I'm unemployed. I did get a job offer on Friday, though. I don't know when we're releasing this episode, but hopefully by the time you're listening to it, I will be gainfully employed again.

Vacation Dreams And Scarcity Fears

Brandon 4:40

But you know, with Jess making more, then she carries more of the household burning burden from a financial standpoint. Yeah. So, you know, with these, you know, you know, in a scenario where you have these small little things that we're bickering about over these small charges, it might not be necessarily the small charges. It's more the grand picture of I feel financially responsible for this stuff and it's starting to become a burden, and we don't have a solid plan in place to make sure that we are okay currently and we're okay in the future as far as where we're moving.

Jessica 5:09

Absolutely. Um, one of one of my favorite things, one of our favorite things is planning vacations. But you might be in a scenario where you're planning a vacation and your partner is always shutting it down. They're always like, no, we can't talk about that right now. Maybe the real fear is scarcity, right? A lot of us have a scarcity mindset. So if there is scarcity coming from one partner, then that's gonna build resentment that you are, you know, planning for things that might seem frivolous to one person, but are really like important to you because maybe you're the person that's like, this is how we connect, this is how we unwind, this is how, you know, we we talk about future plans and goals. Like we don't get a chance to do that at home because we're so busy. So for you, it's more than a vacation, but for your partner, it's just financial burden and stress because they're coming from a place of scarcity.

Brandon 6:02

Yeah. I mean, we've had episodes in the past where we talk about, you know, the difference in how your upbringing is. You know, if you're somebody that grew up and you got your family never went on vacations because you didn't have the money or you're just, you know, just wasn't a priority. Yeah. And that's completely different than someone who did grow up on going on great vacations.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

Yeah.

Brandon 6:21

And maybe you guys haven't talked about that and figured out, hey, why are we so polar opposite and where is that rooted from? Because you can have somebody that grows up, you know, with not a lot of money and they're still gonna have the same scarcity mindset, even if their finances are okay. And you can have another person who grew up with, you know, not a lot of money and they're now overspending.

Jessica 6:40

Yeah, yeah. You can go in two different directions.

Brandon 6:42

Like you never know, but if you're not actually having a conversation about what the root issue is, then you're never gonna actually figure that out.

Gifts And The Need To Feel Valued

Jessica 6:49

Right. Yeah, it's so true. Um, gifting, right? Gifting comes up. You've got Valentine's Day, you've got birthdays, you've got Christmas. If you are associating value, monetary value to the types of gifts you're getting from your partner, and maybe they're not meeting your expectations, that can be the source of uh an argument.

Brandon 7:10

Yeah, and it's not, and it's not even necessarily I would say like obviously there's a value attached to it, but it's not even necessarily a monetary value. It's maybe the thought behind the gift and of itself. Right. Because like I would say that like that's something that I also had to learn in regards to our life.

Jessica 7:25

Yeah, like that one year when our my stocking was empty.

Brandon 7:27

Yes.

Jessica 7:28

Yeah.

Brandon 7:29

Because I grew up like we got gifts, but it wasn't a huge thing in our in our household. So, like for me personally, I appreciate a good gift, but like I think that is not your love language. No, it's not.

Jessica 7:40

As far as receiving it's not mine either. Yeah, but I am a Taurus and I want the thought and effort behind it.

Brandon 7:46

It wasn't that, oh, I, you know, you didn't buy me this expensive thing. It was like I'm working hard in my career, I'm working hard to take care of this family. I do all this, this, and that.

Jessica 7:57

I decorated the house for Christmas. I've been making all the cookies, all the things, and now I'm sitting here on Christmas morning and I have literally nothing in my stocking.

Brandon 8:05

Yes.

Jessica 8:05

And I was disappointed.

Brandon 8:06

Yes.

Jessica 8:07

Uh, that has never happened again. Yes.

Brandon 8:09

Because we talked about what it was. It wasn't like she, like I said, when we had the when we had the issue, she didn't say like, oh, I you didn't get me this expensive gift. She said, I don't feel valued.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Right.

Brandon 8:20

So you could have got she's like, you could have gotten me anything and I didn't, and I just didn't feel valued. And you have to be able to listen to your partner.

Jessica 8:27

Yeah.

Brandon 8:28

Take that constructive criticism. And if you love them and you want to make them happy and move forward in a better uh direction, take the advice and do what you're supposed to do with it.

The $100K Savings Blowup Decoded

Jessica 8:39

Yeah. There was one year, I think it was my 39th birthday, uh, which I like presents are not my love language. Our love language together is quality time. And we like to spend quality time on vacation. So that is where we spend our money. So for Christmas, Brandon and I know we're gonna just do stocking stuffers, right? Especially now because we started a new tradition of traveling with the kids for Christmas. So, like, even them were getting accustomed to like, no, no, no, the trip is the gift. So do not expect to have, you know, this huge pile of presents underneath. The present is the flight, the hotel, the big old pool, going to the beach, all like all those things. Um, but there was one year where Brandon just he fumbled, he fumbled the ball. He knows what he did. He's not done it again. Uh, he came correct the next year. But again, it wasn't about the money, but it was about, you know, how I feel like I'm pouring into all parts of my life at all times, and then nobody is pouring back into me. And so that's what I really had to explain to him is that when this happens, this is how it makes me feel. It's not about you didn't spend this amount of money. It's you didn't put thought into X, Y, and Z. Yes. Um, and so the the last example that I'll give is the other day I just very randomly out of the blue, we weren't even like sitting and having a money meeting. We were, we were like crossing paths in the hallway. And I was like, I want to save$100,000. And he was like, Whoa, where did that come from? Um, and I basically just started rambling. But the the point of that was I have now been the quote unquote victim of layoffs, two layoffs in two years. I was laid off in 2024. Um, and then most recently in March of 2026. And I'm in a very volatile uh industry. I'm in tech, right? So the first time I was laid off, that was my first time ever in life being laid off. Um, and it did come as a surprise, even though I was working for a company that notoriously did two big layoffs a year, especially in the United States. Um, but like I didn't see it coming. I ended up with like a six-month garden leave that was actually quite lovely. Um, and I realized after that that like I want us to have more money in savings, not only so that we have the security of me not having to find a job so quickly because I am the higher earner. I also hold our health insurance. Um but also I'm tired, y'all. Like I'm tired. And if and or when, because I'm honestly planning for when another layoff happens, I think it's better to plan for the worst, expect the best. I don't want to have to immediately go and look for another job. I don't want to feel like I have to go and be the provider right the next day, you know, or within 30 days or whatever. Like I want a buffer and I want breathing room and I want to be able to come up for air and I want to just take a pause.

Brandon 11:48

Yeah. So when she, you know, this was the planner in me is when she said$100,000. I was like, where is this number coming from?

Jessica 11:56

Yeah.

Brandon 11:57

What does this number represent?

Jessica 11:58

And really what it was is I was like, it's a year of expenses. And he was like, no, it's not. That's not our number. Yeah.

Brandon 12:04

So basically, really what it was is that all the things that she just said in regards to the potential of another layoff, um, feeling um less stressed, feeling more secure, she wanted to increase our emergency savings and make sure that we have a year's worth of expenses now. And that's what we're going to increase it to is we're now part of our goal is easy increasing our emergency fund to 12 months worth of expenses. And that wasn't$100,000, but you know, that's we said, talking through it and finding out specifically what it was that, you know, she really wanted to address, we were able to come to an agreement on what it is that we're looking to accomplish and then start working on that.

Jessica 12:41

Yeah. And just I don't because it might matter in my head, it's not an additional$100,000. It's getting our current emergency savings to$100,000. Um, but yeah, it I had a moment of like panic and overwhelm. And I needed to like let that out. And then he kind of brought me back and he was like, okay, well, that's not 12 months. So, like, again, where did you get that number from? And then that's when I explained, well, I want a buffer. I want to be able to come up for air for, you know, a month or 60 days before even needing to like think about the job search, or very lightly tap my foot in and like maybe apply to one to two jobs a week, which, you know, in this day and age, I mean, there's LinkedIn posts where people are like, I've been unemployed for a year and I've applied to 4,000 jobs, right? Like, I mean, people are going hard, right? So for me, it was more of a security thing. But again, I said a number, but there was so much underneath the hood that we needed to get to of what the, and this wasn't an argument, but let's for the sake of this episode, what this argument was about. My argument was we need$100,000 in savings. And Brandon was like, let's take a step back and let's figure out where you got that number from. So there's always an undertone, there's always subtext, and it's our responsibility as a couple to figure out where your partner's subtext is coming from.

Brandon 14:08

Yeah. And obviously in that scenario, I was a little bit more equipped to deal with it because of what I do for a living. And yeah, I'm always like, if you're coming up with a random number out of the blue, what does this number represent? Is it an accurate number of what you're trying to accomplish?

Jessica 14:21

Which to be clear, just for anybody listening, and and again, we've never wanted to paint ourselves as a perfect couple or anything like that. Um, sometimes Brandon's job is super annoying. Like, because my feelings are my feelings. They're gonna be valid no matter what. So when Brandon's like instantly like, well, let's do the math and let's this, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, let's stop all that. Like, don't financial advisor me right now.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Don't financial advisor.

Jessica 14:49

What I'm what I'm trying to tell you is like, this is the number that I want, and this is what's gonna make me feel good. Now he does obviously have a point because a lot of times the number in the bank is largely uncorrelated to how we actually feel about money, right? So, like maybe it's a hundred thousand dollars, and then I'm like, no, that's still not enough. Now we got to bump it up again, right? So, like our feelings and the number in the bank don't always correlate. So it is good to just take a step back and for him to walk me through that. But sometimes in the moment, his logical financial advisor brain does not work for me. So I just wanted to put that out there.

Brandon 15:26

Maybe that's the like couples for ones, like a psychologist or a therapist.

Jessica 15:29

Oh, I'm sure. Oh my gosh. Like, don't therapise me right now.

Brandon 15:33

Therapize.

Visibility Fixes With Tools And Budgets

Jessica 15:35

Yeah, don't counsel me. Um and so really we need to like decode what is being said, right? It's like whether it's you go to Target too much. Okay, okay, like, well, what does that mean? Like, I'm buying household things, I'm not going shopping, I'm not coming home with new clothes, like I'm replacing the kids' shoes, whatever it is. Like, let's talk about what you're actually saying when you're saying you spend too much money, you go to Target too much, you spent too much at the grocery store. Like, what is that actually saying? And the therapist that we had on, uh, we'll actually link the episode in the show notes. She suggested that when you have those moments, and they come up for all of us, right? But when you have those moments, take the thing that you spent money on out of the sentence.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Yeah.

Jessica 16:26

Right. Which is difficult because if you're saying things like, you spend too much money at Target, and now you're taking out the target, you're like, okay, what is actually behind the you spend too much money? Is it a scarcity? Is it that you're maybe unaware of the budget? Um, maybe one person is lacking visibility and money is a little bit tighter than you anticipated. Like, there's so many things that again could be under the hood. If you take the thing out of the sentence that you're arguing about, that's going to help you get to that underneath layer.

Brandon 17:00

And the one like you bringing up a that's a very good point because recently, multiple times with couples, um, with one, I'm gonna say in these scenarios, it was more often the um the wife was a little bit more stressed about the finances was due to a lack of visibility. And kind of being able to see on like a month-to-month basis what they have coming in, what's going out, and where it's going.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Yeah.

Brandon 17:26

And so, like recently, like we've talked about this time and time again, and we're gonna you know continue to you know push it. Monarch money, I recently implemented, got a uh a client of mine to implement the monarch money because I think being able to simply see very clearly in green and red, like if if you have your money coming in, the green, you have money going out in the red, and are you spending more than you have coming in, or are you or do you have a surplus at the end of the month? And just simply being able to see that changed how she felt dramatically.

Jessica 17:58

Yeah. Well, and we've had that and we've talked openly about that, right? Because again, I am a corporate girly. I work a nine to five, I have a W-2. My paycheck, for the most part, aside from like bonuses or whatever, are going to be the same every two weeks. Yours as a business owner, you know, you're bringing on new clients. Sometimes you're you're ramping people off. Like your money varies. You also have your business expenses. So you're getting money from your clients, but it also costs money to do what you do and to use the tools that you use, et cetera, et cetera. So for me, like you know that my paycheck is going to be X every two weeks, but your paycheck was like, it's just up and down, right? Like sometimes you have excellent months, sometimes you have maybe like a little bit of a lull. And so we now are at a point where I know exactly what Brandon's bringing in, what his monthly expenses are, and what to expect of what he's putting back into the business versus what's coming back into our household. And so that was a visibility gap that we had for a while. And what I'll say about that, um, for anybody who hasn't listened to that some of those past episodes is when it was just the two of us, it didn't bother me. Like I didn't care. We were fine, our money was our money, but then we started adding kids and our money became our kids' money, right? Because it was like daycare and diapers, and they're growing out of their clothes and all the registrations and the this and the teacher appreciation and all of that. And that's he was he was lacking visibility into how much money I was spending maintaining the kids' things, doing things for school, you know, all those little things add up. Like, oh, we're having our Easter egg classroom party, we're having a Valentine's Day. Okay, so now I'm buying cookies, I'm buying drinks, I'm buying this, we're doing little trinkets. It's not a ton of money, but now we're doing it for two classes.

Brandon 19:49

Yeah, no, all that stuff adds up with. It adds up, especially in in the scenarios where I would say a bulk of those everyday expenses for the kids, you know, what buying new clothes, buying new shoes, you know, new backpack, whatever it may be. Swim lesson, soccer registration. Yeah. It often falls on birthday parties.

Jessica 20:07

Yeah. It's it's so much. And so I was seeing all the money coming out, or going out rather, for all the things kid related. And Brandon wasn't processing it because he wasn't the one doing it, right? So we had to have kind of a sit-down and and realign. And so I do think we talk about this a lot on our episodes, but your phases of life, right? If you're going from single to partnered, partnered to married, married to with kids, like those expenses, the way you're operating, the way you're paying bills, it will change. Um, and so you might have to have those conversations because we were fine before we had kids. And then I started feeling more and more overwhelmed with the lack of visibility once we had kids. And you just have to get to a point where you can start verbalizing that and be really clear with your partner. But I think a lot of things are monetarily are tied to how you grew up with money, your feelings around money, your identity around money, right? Like even though I've I've been the higher earner in our relationship for a long time, Brandon's identity as a man and a father and a husband is not tied to how much money he makes because he knows he brings so much value to our family in so many other ways. But I have a lot of friends who are in relationships where the man does not feel that way. And we can call it insecure or whatever. Like we're not gonna label it here. It is, it is very likely tied to how you grew up with money, maybe how your family that you grew up in was structured. Maybe your dad was the breadwinner, your mom was maybe the stay at home mom. Like, there's all different kinds of reasons.

Brandon 21:44

Also the societal norms.

The DREAM Framework For Money Talks

Jessica 21:46

And the societal norms. There's so many reasons why we feel the way we feel about money. Um, but that's why we we created the dream framework. And the D in dream stands for dive, because the first thing you need to do is to dive into a Understand how your partner feels about money. How do you feel about money? What are things that you grew up with? What are things that you heard growing up? And have that conversation. Because if you're operating from an abundance mindset and your partner is operating from a scarcity mindset, hello, clash, you're always going to butt heads because one person wants to quote unquote spend and the other person wants to hoard. Right. Um, the R in dreams stands for reflect because again, how you grew up with money, the things you heard about money, uh, the memories, maybe the traumas you have around money, those things are going to show up in your life right now. They are showing up in your relationship. And if you don't take a minute to reflect on how that's showing up, is it showing up as abundance? Is it showing up as scarcity? Is it showing up as fear, um, then you're not going to be able to work through it. So you have to understand how is it actually showing up in your life right now, in your relationship right now. So we're diving, we're reflecting.

Brandon 23:06

Yeah, because if you are not taking that time for you to understand one, yourself, and then, you know, understand where maybe some of the negative things that you're showing in your financial life, where that's coming from, you're never going to be able to fix that and improve and move forward. You have to understand what the problem is and what the root of that problem is before you can make any changes.

Jessica 23:30

Yeah, absolutely. You can't, you can't fix it if you're not aware of it. I mean, that's the bottom line, right? Um, the E in dreams stands for engage, because now that you've dived, dove into your past, um, and your partner's done the same, you've reflected, maybe you've taken some notes, maybe you're journaling, whatever that looks like for you. Um, now you're engaging with your partner. Now you're having the conversation of like, here's what I heard my parents say. Oh, we had our lights turned off every other month. Like I am really terrified about, you know, our utility bills that because of this. I didn't come from a home where I had, you know, a stable food option. Like I only got to eat meals at school. I never had consistent meals at home. Like people have stories, people have baggage, people have trauma. And if you do not understand where your partner is coming from and where their money mindset was formed and how it was shaped and why, you're never going to be able to understand them. And you need to, when it comes to money and your partner and your relationship in general, you have to be empathetic.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Yes.

Jessica 24:41

And learning your partner's stories, learning why they are the way they are in life and with their money will help you be more empathetic. So that when, and I've given this example before, when Brandon takes three months to buy a pair of sunglasses, and I'm like, oh my gosh, just buy them already. Well, I know how he grew up with money. I know who his mom is.

Brandon 25:06

The funny part is I didn't grow up poor.

Jessica 25:08

No, no, but you act like you did. Um, so but again, like knowing those things helps you understand like, you know what? It's gonna take Brandon for anything that costs over$150, it's gonna take him minimum 45 days to make a decision. And he's gonna look up the prices, he's gonna be scrolling in bed, he's gonna look for alternatives, he's gonna wait for the sale, he's gonna wait for the coupon. Fine. If that's what he wants to do, go do that. But like, because I know who he is, I now know that that is just what he's going to do.

Brandon 25:40

Yeah. And also, even just, you know, one other example from our own personal experience is that, you know, I was fortunate enough to grow up and my mom paid for my brother and I to go to college. We both had like some scholarships, um, you know, whether it be academic or athletic, but then the remaining balance, my mom paid off. And for Jess, Jess had to pay her way, her pay herself, pay her own way through school.

Jessica 26:03

Not according to my dad, but we have to clear that up.

Brandon 26:06

And, you know, so initially when we came together and we're talking about planning for our family for our kids, you know, I was of the mindset we're going to pay for our kids, you know, help them so that they don't have to have student loans. And she was like, why wouldn't they not have student loans? And it's not even a matter of like, it was just a it wasn't a matter of like she just adamantly disagreed with me or I disagreed with her. It's just that we had different experiences from upbringing and we had different quote unquote norms of how we thought about that. But then when we talked through it, you know, I was able to find out more about just a scenario in regards to that. And we actually are now on the same page as far as like wanting to help our children not have student loans. And like I said, we had to talk through it and find out the root of, you know, why we thought the way that we thought.

Jessica 26:50

Right. Well, and I think too, what you said is critical, right? You kind of assumed that we would cover our kids' college. And I kind of assumed, well, if they don't get scholarships, then they'll just take out loans. And like, not saying that we wouldn't help them with it or whatever, but like because of what we experienced, we make assumptions. And you cannot make assumptions because neither one of you are mind readers, and you need to just be clear and direct. We have been together for a long time now.

Brandon 27:20

Almost 13 years in October.

Jessica 27:22

Yay. And listen, he still cannot read my mind. A lot, sometimes it happens. Sometimes I'm like, oh, that was good. Good, good job, babe. But most of the time, listen, I just don't have time or energy or capacity to want you to assume what's going on in my head. So I just need to be direct about it. And I expect him to do the same because I don't want to guess. And it's so much easier to just be direct and to set expectations clearly than to hope and wish and pray that your partner is going to like magically know how you feel or what you want done or how you wanted that to go, etc. Don't do that. Don't, don't do that.

Brandon 28:01

It's not just don't be like, oh, I shouldn't have to say it. You should just know. Like, no, don't no, that's on either side, that's setting the other person up for failure.

Jessica 28:09

Yeah. Like I want like that one. I wanted you to want to want to unload the dishwasher. Like, nobody wants to unload the dishwasher. If you want him to unload the dishwasher, ask him to unload the dishwasher. Nobody wants to do it, you know? So yeah, be direct. Um we've got a couple more letters in dreams. So D-R-E, now we're at the A. You have to act, right? So whether that is taking action to get more visibility and getting a tool like Monarch, you know, so that you both have access to what's going on, what's coming in, what's going out, etc. Um, whether that is, you know, let's increase our savings rate, like we talked about. Like I want more money in savings because I'm in a volatile industry. And if and when I get laid off again, I want more breathing room, right? So, like having that conversation, whatever it is for you, you have to put a plan in place. The money is not gonna just magically appear. I know, for example, that in order to hit this goal that is important to me, we will need to make sacrifices, right? So maybe that's, and I haven't been getting my nails done really, but like something simple as, okay, I'm not gonna get pedicures for the remainder of the year, or I'm not gonna, you know, XYZ. I'm not gonna buy what's in my Amazon cart, like whatever, whatever it is, you're gonna have to make a plan to reach those goals, you know? So you're gonna have to actually sit down and figure out what that looks like for you. And then the M stands for manage because things change, right? Maybe you get a raise, maybe you get a promotion. Now you can hit that goal faster. Maybe you got a windfall, maybe you can pay off some debt faster. Maybe one of you can look for a new job to help accelerate some of the stability that you feel like is lacking in the financial relationship that you have. There's so many options of you know what needs to be done for what scenario. But the point is it's not going to do it by itself. Like you have to put the plan in place and then you have to manage it.

Brandon 30:10

Yes. Cause um, normally it's easier to have the fight about the superficial thing than really have a deep conversation about what the actual issue is. And the purpose of the getting to the root. Yes, and the purpose of the dream framework is so that you are starting to avoid those superficial fights and actually having that real conversation so that you can to the root of the real issue, put a plan in place, and move forward in a better direction.

Jessica 30:36

Yeah, absolutely. Um, we actually created a guide for couples to have dream money conversations. So we will link that here. Um, we will give it to you for free for being a listener, although typically we sell it. Um, so we'll put that link in the show notes. But really, y'all, it it always comes back down to communication. It really like have open, honest, transparent, raw, emotional, empathetic conversations. Like you're gonna have to be vulnerable, you're gonna have to say the things that maybe make you a little uncomfortable. Because a lot of times this is rooted in I'm scared that. What if this, right? Like for me, it's I'm scared that I will get laid off and I will have to go right back to work or right back into the job search instead of being able to take a breath. And I'll tell you, I'm super busy even now that I'm not working full time. Like there's always something to do. So I know that if and when something happens, it's good to have a buffer, right? And it's good to have, listen, that kind of money gives you options, right? So whether you're in a toxic work environment, whether you maybe want to extend your maternity leave, whatever it is, like having a cushion, whatever that looks like for you, is always going to help you sleep better at night. It just will.

Pause, Reframe, And Speak The Truth

Brandon 32:00

Yeah. And moving on, you know, in regards to some of the things that you should start to implement and be aware of, is that you do have to be able to maybe recognize when you are having these quote unquote negative, bad negative behaviors in a fight.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

Yeah.

Brandon 32:15

And be able to actually, you know, acknowledge that what's currently happening and make a plan to change and pivot so that you can have better conversations. So, like, you know, you might be in the middle of a fight and you might want to just go ahead and pause and be like, hey, like, are we actually really talking about what the issue is?

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Right.

Brandon 32:32

Or are we trying to have the easier superficial fight and not actually addressing the real issue? So being able to pause in the moment and decide, are we actually talking about what we need to be talking about?

Money Dates And Shared Notes That Work

Jessica 32:42

Right. Yeah. I mean, that pause and then saying, like, what am I actually feeling in this moment? What am I actually afraid of in this moment? Like, are you having thoughts around lack of security, lack of control, maybe lack of inequity or fairness in your home? We had a whole episode on that with Eve Rodsky, who I think is amazing. Is it, are we talking about respect? Is it, are we talking about feeling loved? I mean, there's so much that goes into a relationship, a happy relationship. And money, a lot of times, is kind of the catalyst or the trigger for these conversations, but there is something underlying. So take a breath, take a pause and figure out what am I actually feeling in this moment? Because I'm not upset about the dishwasher or the thermostat or the target run. It's something deeper, right? So definitely process that. Um, and then maybe change the script, right? Instead of saying, like, you never do this, you never do that, I always have to this. You could say, I'm not upset about the dishwasher. I'm actually feeling this about our finances, or about how we're splitting chores, or about how I have to use my time at home versus how you get to use your time at home. I'll give you an example. Brandon very rarely asks me about going to the gym. Sometimes he does, like if we have a busy day, but most of the time he assumes he's going to the gym. Whereas I internalize all the things that have to be done around the house. And I always sacrifice myself in that sense, and I get done what I feel needs to get done in the home, right? And if famously, Michelle Obama was like, it's not my responsibility to do the laundry when there's two of us in this home. So I'm also going to go to the gym, right? Like she basically was like, I'm upset that he, that Barack always goes to the gym and I'm sitting here doing the laundry. And she's like, wait a minute, let me do a reframe and we can both do the laundry when we get back from the gym. Right. So, like, if Michelle Obama is having this conversation, then we can definitely have that conversation, right? But like, it's one of those things, like, we all prioritize different things. I prioritize a clean, empty laundry room. Not that that happens often, but I was getting upset with Brandon about like always making time for himself to go to the gym, even though when I stop, take a breath, reframe, if I did the same, he would never say anything negative about it. Right. So it's really not me being upset with him. It's me being upset with myself because I'm prioritizing so many other things instead of I'm gonna go to the gym for an hour. So, whatever that situation is for you, take a step back and really think about like what am I actually upset about? Because you're gonna peel back the layers and you're gonna come to a very different conclusion than the gym or the dishwasher or the target bill, you know?

Brandon 35:40

And I would also say, you know, with that, schedule the actual time to talk about the money issue. So schedule a date to have your money conversation. Because one, you don't want to do it in the heat of an argument where emotions are high. Because I understand 100% that, you know, there's a lot of emotions attached to people's money. But what you really want to do from a planning standpoint is actually look not at the emotional aspect, look at the logical aspect of the numbers and talk through it. And that's extremely hard to do in the heat of the moment.

Jessica 36:11

Yes. So yeah, and you never listen, out of all the things you don't want to talk about when you're heated and stressed is money.

Brandon 36:19

Yes.

Jessica 36:20

Like just take a minute. The money, what whether it's good or bad or ugly, it's still going to be that way when you schedule the money date.

Brandon 36:27

You also want to be a constructive conversation where you have the information, you have the numbers. Because I mean, even in our scenario, sometimes, like, you know, just as is throwing ideas at me and stuff like that, and we're and we're in Milwaukee, and I'm like, yes, that's I can't process it that way when I'm like trying to make my breakfast.

Jessica 36:43

His favorite is when I do it right before he's about to fall asleep, and my mind is like wide awake and racing, and he's like, Are you kidding me right now?

Brandon 36:52

So I'm like, make a note and we can talk about it during our money meeting.

Jessica 36:56

Yeah, have a shared note. We have a ton of shared notes, and that is a great way to like brain dump what's top of mind for you, but it doesn't actually have to be talked about right in this moment. You don't want to forget the things that you know you're you're thinking about and you do want to bring them up during the next money date. So have a shared note and then you both can put those things in there. And then more importantly, you can prepare to have answers. Like if there's something you need to do or you need to look into for your money date, um, you know, to like come prepared, then you have time to do that. So that way when you actually meet, you have the answers ready. Right.

Brandon 37:35

And I would say this next one is huge. And I would say if your relationship, you know, in a heterosexual relationship is like anything like ours, sometimes the men tend to be on the receiving end a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Sure.

Brandon 37:46

Um, so I would say this is huge for men. Like if you're on the receiving end, sometimes take a breather and don't take it personal and try to really understand what it is specifically your spouse is trying to get at, your partner is trying to get at. Because, you know, I I would say I'm kind of more of an even kill when it comes to an emotional standpoint in comparison to Jess. And so, you know, and also she carries a lot more of the emotional baggage as the mom and you moms out there know that. And for example, when she was talking about the stress of having a hundred thousand dollars and like what I didn't take it personal or anything like that, or like she was attacking me, I was like, what specifically are we looking to address here? And sometimes you have to be able to just realize that maybe it's not about you, it's about a specific fear or emotion that she's having, and you have to be calm enough to understand it's not about you and talk through it with her to find out specifically what it is and how you guys can put a plan in place and improve it.

Jessica 38:50

Yeah, I love that. I think that's a really great call out. The other thing that I would say, and I know that we're at an advantage because of what you do, just naturally who we are, and then the fact that we have a money podcast and we talk about money all the time. But I think if you can work to get to a place where you can comfortably discuss money, even the harder topics, right? Of like, oh, we went over our budget, or uh, you know, maybe we don't get an appetizer at dinner tonight, whatever it is, right? If you can have those kind of one-off quick conversations regularly, it makes the bigger money dates not feel big, right? Because I think especially for maybe those of you that are listening where you're like, well, I've never had a money date with my partner, or we don't have the visibility that we need, or I was caught off guard by this huge credit card bill that I didn't know existed, or whatever. Like people have big stories, right? Like if you can get to a point where you can have just super basic money conversations very casually, it will make the bigger sit-down planning type conversations feel less daunting, don't you think?

Brandon 40:02

Oh, 100%. Because you also it's I guess the best analogy you can think of is like it's a muscle and you're starting to work it out. And obviously it's going to be like, you know, if you haven't worked out before and you're, you know, doing a workout, your muscles are gonna be really sore the first time because you're not used to using them in that way. But as you do it more and more, you get more um accustomed to that feeling, and it's not as painful in between workouts.

Jessica 40:27

Right. And the more you're having the conversation, hopefully the more you're stronger at exactly. Yeah. So then you're having better conversations, you're resolving things more quickly, you're putting plans in place that you're actually sticking to. Like it's gonna have that same kind of snowball, that positive snowball effect of all right, we like we talked about money, it wasn't a big deal. We put a quick plan in place and we're good.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Yes.

Jessica 40:50

So, um, but I think the dream framework, again, specifically, right? Diving into your past, reflecting on how it's showing up for you currently, then engaging with your partner on like what did you learn and exchanging that information, putting a plan in place. So acting on what are the goals? Are you increasing savings, investments, reducing debt? Are you trying to, you know, save for a down payment on a house? Whatever it is, like you have to put a plan in place and then you have to manage that plan because our life, our money is constantly changing. And as we've said in multiple episodes, planning is a verb, right? Is it an action that you take continuously? So we want you to have good money conversations. We want you to feel confident having these money conversations. We don't want it to be stressful, intimidating. We don't want you to be fearful about having them. And we wanted to share that like we still have those conversations. I had my freak out when we pulled the layers back. It was I'm in a volatile industry for work and I want more security in our bank account, our liquid bank account, right? Um, and I'm glad that Brandon brought me back and he kind of helped me peel off those layers. But we want you to be able to do the same because when you're arguing about the target bill or you're spending too much money at Starbucks, it's not about the Starbucks. What is it really about? So that's what we want you to get to. Like get to the root, have the conversations, approach each other with love and respect and empathy. And just remember it's also okay to take a break.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

Yes.

Jessica 42:31

Right? Like take a break. I need to take a step away, I need to take a quick walk, I need to go, you know, drink an energy drink, whatever it might be. It's okay to walk away respectfully and to start the conversation again at a different time.

unknown 42:45

Okay.

Jessica 42:46

But have the conversation, don't shy away from it, and don't assume that you know what your partner is thinking. Be honest. Did I miss anything?

Brandon 42:56

No, I think I think you got it all.

Free Guide, Reviews, And Closing

Jessica 42:58

Okay, perfect. Well, we appreciate you being with us as always. If you have not taken the time to leave us a five-star rating and a written review, please do that. We read them, we love them. It helps get the podcast in front of other people.

Brandon 43:12

It's free. It's free.

Jessica 43:14

So little in life is free right now, but leaving a review is free and it is so meaningful to us and any other podcast that you're listening to, honestly. So it helps the algorithm put our podcast in front of other people that need this information. So as always, we will talk to you next Wednesday, and thank you for tuning in. Don't forget, Benjamin Franklin said, an investment in knowledge pays the best interest. You just got paid. Until next time.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Sugar Daddy Podcast Go. Learn how to make the pockets grow. Five minutes of freedom, where we grow.

Jessica 43:49

Thanks for listening to today's episode. We are so glad to have you as part of our Sugar Daddy community. If you learned something today, please remember to subscribe, rate, review, and share this episode. With your friends, family, and extended network. Don't forget to connect with us on social media at the Sugar Daddy Podcast. You can also email us your questions you want us to answer for our past the sugar segments at thesugardaddypodcast at gmail.com or leave us a voicemail through our Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Our content is intended to be used and must be used for informational purposes only. It is very important to do your own analysis before making any investment based upon your own personal circumstances. You should take independent financial advice from a licensed professional in connection with or independently research and verify any information you find in our podcast and wish to rely upon, whether for the purpose of making an investment decision or otherwise.