May 21, 2025
89: Money and Mental Health: How Finances can Affect Your Wellbeing
May is Mental Health Awareness Month—and Jess and Brandon are talking about one of the biggest, most ignored triggers of anxiety and depression: money stress. Financial pressure doesn’t just hurt your bank account—it hijacks your sleep, your self-worth, and your ability to think clearly.
In this episode, they unpack the debt-stress spiral, why even high earners aren’t immune, and how shame keeps so many people silently suffering. If you’ve ever avoided your account balance or felt like you’re failing at “adulting,” this one’s for you.
Money problems aren’t a character flaw—and support is available. Let’s talk about what healing actually looks like.
Visit prenups.com/sugardaddy to learn more about fair prenups that help couples plan for a healthy financial relationship.
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Chapters
00:00 - Episode Introduction
01:22 - The Money-Mental Health Connection
05:33 - Understanding the Debt-Depression Loop
09:48 - High Achievers and Financial Shame
15:54 - Breaking Free From Financial Trauma
22:17 - Small Steps to Financial Recovery
27:09 - Getting Help and Moving Forward
31:50 - Mental Health and Money: Closing Thoughts
Transcript
WEBVTT
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This episode is sponsored by Prenupscom.
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Backslash sugardaddy and get the prenup that helps you stay married.
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Already married?
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No worries, they do postnuptial agreements too.
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That's what Brandon and I did after eight years of marriage.
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They do postnuptial agreements too.
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That's what Brandon and I did after eight years of marriage.
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Today's episode is for anyone feeling overwhelmed by debt, struggling with money shame and craving a judgment-free conversation about how financial pressure affects our mental health.
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We are going to explore a two-way relationship between debt and depression and challenge the shame that keeps people financially and emotionally stuck.
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We definitely want to offer you both a mindset shift and actionable steps to help you start breaking free.
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Hey babe, what are we talking about today?
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Well, it is Mental Health Awareness Month and we're going to be talking about the money and the mental today.
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Yes, yes, may is Mental Health Awareness Month and, thankfully, over the past few years, there definitely has been a push for being more open and talking about mental health struggles that you know individuals may be having.
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And when it comes to your money, those two can definitely, you know, intertwine.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think there is a lot of mental space that is taken up by money problems, money shame, money guilt, money plans Really, I mean just anything that touches money could be very mentally draining and exhausting and triggering for many people.
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Yeah, I would definitely say that money is a stress inducer, unfortunately, for a lot of people, and when you don't address it properly, then it's just.
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It filters into every other aspect of your life, as far as how you're going to interact with your spouse, how you interact with your kids, how you interact with your friends, how you interact at work.
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So it is definitely something very important that does need to be addressed, and I don't think, when it comes to we think about mental health in so many different aspects.
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I don't think we often think about it in relationship to money.
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Right, even though think about it.
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I mean I have friends in my circle who you know, make a great income, are high earners, but maybe they have student loan debts, maybe they have moved a parent in.
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You know, some people have teenagers, but also young kids, and then maybe even college age kids who you know they've taken on their, their kids, student loans.
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That's, you know, a landscape in itself right now.
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That is just, I mean, that's mentally draining, because who can even keep up with all the different like repayment plans and all the things going on.
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I mean there's just so much that occupies our mental space, that touches money and honestly I know it's keeping them up at night.
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And I think if you're listening to this episode today, you're not alone.
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I think that normalizing the conversation which is why we started the podcast in the first place, is the best place to start, but also digging in and figuring out, you know, not only why do you feel the way you feel, but how can we come out from this?
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I mean, I agree with everything you said.
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I also do want to preface that we are not professionals within the mental health space.
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No, we are not psychiatrists, therapists, counselors none of that none of the above we're more or less talking about just from our own personal experience, and then, obviously, we do have experience within the financial realm area to speak on that aspect.
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Yeah, but really today's conversation is going to be around the common debts that most of us have some sort of experience.
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When you're thinking about student loans, credit cards, medical debts, lifestyle creep, I mean, I have student loans.
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I had shoulder surgery last year.
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Now Brandon tore his Achilles, so now we're dealing with that.
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We found out was it yesterday, I think that are out of pocket for you is $9,000.
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I mean, like it's just all so much, even when I know that we're doing fine.
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You know you could always be doing better.
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There's always we always want to save more money.
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You know we had plans for my bonus.
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Now Brandon got hurt.
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Now we're getting a tax refund we weren't expecting, which is such a blessing, but now we're having to have the conversation of OK, well, how, how do we make the most strategic decision?
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So even when you're in a good place quote, unquote, good place with money, it still takes a lot of our mental space.
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It still is something that we talk about all the time because we're trying to be strategic, we're trying to be smart, we're trying not to mess up, we're trying to set ourselves up for our future and plan for retirement and all the things and I'll be honest, it keeps me up at night, you know, even if you're thinking about miles and points and how to get the best bang for your buck when it comes to your vacation and your flights.
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And it's all draining and it's all a lot mentally.
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All right, real quick.
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I want to speak to the person listening who feels like they can't work with a financial planner yet because they're carrying a lot of debt.
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First of all, I see you and I need you to know.
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You're not broken, you're not behind, you're just in a tough season.
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I created something just for you because I've had people reach out who are serious about changing their money story.
00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:05.824
But the full financial planning package just wasn't the right fit yet.
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So I built a new service through Oak City Financial that's focused completely on debt reduction no fluff, no shame.
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You'll get a one-time planning session, a personalized payoff strategy, your own financial dashboard and monthly coaching.
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If you want extra support while you climb out, it's $300 to get started in, a hundred dollars a month.
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If you want that ongoing guidance, that's it.
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This is about helping you get unstuck, not making you feel like you failed.
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If this sounds like what you've been needing, go ahead and schedule a call with me.
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The link is in the show notes.
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Let's take the first step together.
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Let's take the first step together.
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Yeah, I said that on, and then also you got to think about it too.
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It's on top of everything else that's going on in the world right now, you know, especially with technology, we are so inundated with so much negative information on a regular basis that sometimes I feel like it's hard to come up and breathe because yes unfortunately.
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I mean, I found myself kind of in the same rut sometimes.
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Is that with the algorithm that happens with social media?
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You want to be aware of what's going on in the world and you're looking through that information.
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But then also, what then happens is is that now that information is all in your algorithm?
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So that seems?
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you can't get away from it.
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You can't get away from it.
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So you're trying to scroll, maybe just to like, have some mindless entertainment, but you're still being inundated with all that negative information.
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And, like I said, it's a hard balance because, especially, like you know, for Justin and I, as people of color, we have to stay informed but at the same time, staying informed can also put you in a bad mental health space.
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Staying informed can also put you in a bad mental health space.
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Yeah, you have to set your boundaries.
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I mean, a few years ago we were not in a good place mentally.
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During the pandemic with CNN.
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Yeah, we were just watching way we were consuming way too much news.
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None of it was positive, I mean, it was on all the time.
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It was just not good, so we had to set some boundaries.
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I've been setting some boundaries, but I think one of the important things to to call out is that your mental state when it comes to your money, is not just emotions, right, it's not just I feel bad, I feel anxious.
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I feel this.
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I feel that it is based on your circumstance, and sometimes our circumstances are self induced, and other times they are just what they are.
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They are circumstances, they are products of your environment.
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And sometimes you know we get into debt because we didn't have a choice, and so that is something that I think is really important to acknowledge too that sometimes it is just based on our circumstance and hopefully we can change the circumstance to get us out of that debt depression loop, right where that chronic financial stress, you know, is causing not only the emotional part of that mental fatigue, but also, I mean we know that it can lead to depression and anxiety, and you know your cortisol levels are not regulated, which causes a whole other influx of problems.
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I mean it really is a loop that we need to be aware of and that we need to be mindful of.
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Yeah, I mean it's referred to as the debt depression loop, where you know you kind of get to a point where you are in debt, so you're having, you know the issues in regards to being able to pay off debt, whether that's student loan, debt, credit card debt, whatever it may be but then that being in debt kind of leads to the feeling of being overwhelmed, which I think most people can are familiar with.
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Guilty.
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I feel overwhelmed all the time.
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And then, unfortunately, what happens?
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When you're overwhelmed, you start to feel as though you can't do anything about it.
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So, therefore, you just simply avoid the problem altogether.
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And, as we've discussed numerous times before, avoiding the problem doesn't fix a problem.
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It just simply leads to making the problem actually worse.
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So that's like you're letting your bills pile up, you're not checking your mail, you're afraid to log into your bank accounts.
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You don't want to have that conversation maybe with your partner or spouse to say it's time for a money meeting, we've got to sit down and look at these numbers.
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So that's that avoidance.
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Yeah.
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And then, since you're avoiding it and the problem is getting worse, that leads to you feeling even more like a quote unquote failure, because this problem is not being fixed, it's getting worse.
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Yeah.
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And once that starts to kick in, that's when your depression, anxiety and stuff of that nature starts to increase.
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Well, and then on top of that, it kind of has that snowball effect, because if you're not opening your bills, you're not checking your accounts no-transcript.
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So it's not just a matter of you know your mental well-being.
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It starts to affect your body physically, in the sense of you know you start to not be able to sleep.
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And we know you can't.
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If you are not getting proper sleep, everything else is going to fall apart.
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Cause.
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Normally, I can tell you, I'm the type of person where I normally sleep very well.
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His head hits the pillow and he's done.
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And the few times in my life that I've had issues sleeping.
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It is very apparent to Jess when that happens, because I am not the same person, so I can only imagine for other people.
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You know the same thing.
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Yeah, as somebody myself who sleeps next to a great sleeper, I'm here to tell you it is enraging and infuriating, because I'm one of those people.
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It takes me a very long time, sometimes hours, to actually fall asleep.
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And so to be next to Brandon who like literally his head hits the pillow and he's snoring like mid sentence, it just like enrages me.
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So a lack of sleep if he doesn't get his proper sleep he turns into like this zombie.
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That's like completely incoherent.
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But yeah, bad sleep, poor sleep, I mean all of that.
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That just makes everything else, it compounds, it makes it all worse.
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And the thing is is that I honestly would say that people who maybe have higher education, higher degrees, higher earning jobs, this actually tends to hit them the worst.
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Yeah, because you feel, oh, you're getting because you feel like I'm smart.
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I should know this, I should have known better, I should have done better.
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You feel like I'm smart, I should know this, I should have known better, I should have done better.
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And then you take on a lot of that guilt that really you probably don't need to take on.
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Yeah, if you grew up in maybe a lower socioeconomic level, where these things were not introduced into your family, you maybe didn't go to college, didn't have a lot of quote unquote formal education to think that you should learn this information, it may not hit you as hard as compared to someone that maybe is not a doctor, an attorney.
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They're like I'm smart, you know, I've went to school.
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Has advanced degrees.
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Advanced degrees.
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You know I make a good amount of money.
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Like I should know this, I should understand this, and the reality is that you need to get rid of that thought process because just because, for example, let's just use a doctor, Just because you went to med school last time I checked, obviously I've never been to med school but I don't think they had any courses in med school.
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On finances, yeah, I mean, I think if you surveyed your circle of friends unless you were a finance major who has taken, in high school or college, a finance course, and by finance, right, like I'm not talking about economics, right, like there's very few reasons in college to take those kinds of classes Personal finance, budgeting, saving interest rates, apr versus APY, how to pick your health plan, right, the things that we should have taken instead of music appreciation no offense to music appreciation, I mean we did not have that in school, we didn't have it in in our, you know, elementary, middle school or high school years, and then even in college.
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So, yes, you are educated, you are smart in your area.
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Why are you putting so much pressure on yourself to feel like you should know better?
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Why, because nobody taught you.
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And I think it's especially difficult for people in their families who are the one right, the only, the person who made it, the person that got out, the person who has technically changed their social class from where they came from and I have a lot of people in my circle.
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They were the first to go to college, first to get advanced degrees, first to have the big house, the nice car, the fabulous vacations that is.
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You feel that pressure differently when you're the first, the one who made it.
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I would also say, too, is that, for those individuals, switching your socioeconomic class is one of the hardest things to it.
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I would also say, too, is that, for those individuals, switching your socioeconomic class is one of the hardest things to do.
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Because the majority of people, the socioeconomic classes you're born into, is the one that you die in.
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Yeah, but then also think about the added financial burden that often comes with being the person that made it, because now you're picking up the bill, you're being told well, you've got it, why can't you pay for this?
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You're the one covering those unexpected expenses because maybe those family members didn't have an emergency fund.
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Like there's a lot of pressure and responsibility that comes with it.
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I mean, look at professional athletes.
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That's where I was about to go.
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Okay, you can go on your.
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I mean, we see it all the time, right?
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I was going to say that I think a lot of people have a misperception of why professional athletes quote unquote go broke when they get out of the league.
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Now, obviously some of it does come from bad financial decisions, but in all honesty, that's not the bulk of it.
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The bulk of it is a lack of financial literacy.
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So, for example, you get your paycheck but then you don't realize how much in taxes are going to come out.
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And then also, you know professional athletes have very complicated tax situations because they're taxed in various states, and then on top of that you have to pay your agent, attorneys, all those things.
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So they don't understand how much money is going to come out.
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But then also, often, like you said, they are the first person in their family that's made it, so now they become financially responsible for everyone else in their family.
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And the pressure that can come with feeling as though you have to take care of your parents, your siblings, extended family, stuff of that nature I cannot imagine.
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I've never been in that scenario where I feel as though I have to take care of especially people that are older than you.
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That's a hard one, so I can imagine the stress, anxiety and even depression that comes along with that responsibility.
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Sometimes yeah, and I don't want to get any of these facts wrong, but I have heard that LeBron James has basically tried to avoid, or has avoided, this kind of problem that you just described by keeping his circle of people close but also putting them through college so they all have master's degrees and MBAs, because he wanted them to learn the financial and business, super Bowl, all the things.
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And he talked about his kind of reckless spending.
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You know, instantly went out, bought the G-Wagon and the Range Rover and the this and the that.
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And you know, definitely, looking back now hindsight is 2020, would not have made those decisions again, but being the first, being the only, being the one who made it, that just comes with its own set of pressures you are correct about lebron james.
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He definitely did put you know some of his friends that he grew up with, help put them you know, like I said, get an nba, stuff of that nature.
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So they're part of his team.
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So one he has people around him that he can trust.
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He can trust then also they're, you know they're working and bringing in their own income so he doesn't have to put the bill.
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you know, yeah, but the like I said.
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The hard thing is is that we do want to look for ways to try and break that cycle, and the number one way that you can start with is that you have to forgive yourself, like for what you don't know, for any errors that you made in the past and, in all honesty, for any errors that you are going to potentially make in the future, because even once you do start to improve your financial literacy and you get better at managing your money overall, you're going to make mistakes.
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I'm just explaining that, and as plain as I can, because as a financial advisor, I'm going to make mistakes.
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I know that there's going to be things that I think are, you know, good things that we should do, and it turns out they're not.
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So you have to be able to forgive yourself for those mistakes, learn from them, move forward and do your best to not, you know, do them again in the future.
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Right.
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I think one thing, because it's easier said than done, like, oh, just forgive yourself.
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I mean, if it was that easy, everybody would do it.
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But I think there's a shift that needs to happen from blaming yourself to figuring out why you feel a certain way and shifting into that curious mindset of how did I get myself in this situation?
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How did this happen?
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How did it get so bad?
00:19:15.298 --> 00:19:23.604
So, instead of saying things like, well, why am I like this, ask yourself you know, what is this behavior trying to protect me from?
00:19:23.604 --> 00:19:33.538
Or what behavior in the past has led me to the circumstance that I'm in now, and really switching to a curious mindset.
00:19:33.538 --> 00:19:41.048
Because, just like in our dream framework, we have to understand where our feelings about money come from.
00:19:41.048 --> 00:19:42.694
They come from somewhere.
00:19:42.694 --> 00:19:46.994
They come from privilege, they come from trauma, they come from past mistakes.
00:19:46.994 --> 00:19:48.338
They're coming from somewhere.
00:19:48.338 --> 00:19:56.516
So, getting curious and really figuring out and finding out why do you feel the way you feel about the money, what is this feeling trying to protect you from?
00:19:56.516 --> 00:20:00.076
I think is a good place to start, instead of saying why am I like this?
00:20:00.076 --> 00:20:01.556
Why am I bad with money.
00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:06.873
One thing it reminds me of is I grew up saying I'm not good, I'm not good at math.
00:20:06.873 --> 00:20:08.513
I've said that my whole life.
00:20:08.513 --> 00:20:15.019
My mom still says it to this day, and one thing that we do not say in this house is I'm not good at math.
00:20:15.019 --> 00:20:21.923
We don't say it, right, even if we put a, I'm not good at math yet, or I'm not good at addition yet, right?
00:20:21.923 --> 00:20:28.867
We're trying to reframe things for our children so that they don't start internalizing things that you can work on.
00:20:28.867 --> 00:20:30.557
You can be good at math.
00:20:30.557 --> 00:20:31.634
You will be good at math.
00:20:31.634 --> 00:20:39.383
I am good at math, and that reframe is something that's in my head all the time, because I grew up saying things like that.
00:20:39.383 --> 00:20:46.755
And if you're one of those people who's saying like I'm bad with money, stop saying that You're not bad with money.
00:20:46.755 --> 00:20:49.114
You have not learned about money.
00:20:49.114 --> 00:20:50.759
You have not been educated about money.
00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:54.174
You didn't have the tools and resources to learn about money.
00:20:54.675 --> 00:21:11.151
Reframe and I want to speak to the fellows on this one especially, also because I think we are new to the whole mental health aspect, where there's just now really starting to talk about and encourage men to talk about their feelings and the struggles they've had with mental health.
00:21:11.151 --> 00:21:18.419
And when it comes to money aspects, I know that that is an identity for a lot of men when it comes to being in a relationship.
00:21:18.419 --> 00:21:19.762
Is that where does?
00:21:19.762 --> 00:21:21.549
What is my role in the relationship?
00:21:21.549 --> 00:21:26.212
And my main role is to be the provider, and by provider they think more monetarily.
00:21:26.232 --> 00:21:32.395
When there's I think there's so many other ways to be a provider within a relationship, but we primarily think about it from a monetary standpoint.
00:21:32.395 --> 00:21:52.188
And in these given scenarios, where you are in debt, you maybe aren't making the amount of money that you would like to make, you feel as though you can't adequately provide for your family, you don't have the financial literacy to help out that, you start to internalize that and that just mounts on top of itself and it just multiplies and it's just a negative thing overall.
00:21:52.188 --> 00:22:03.943
So, as a man all the men out there you need to, you know, get rid of this shame of talking about your emotions and expressing that you're not in a good mental space and you need help.
00:22:04.770 --> 00:22:18.030
I think, as men, we have a hard time asking for help, and I think in these scenarios you need help, and so if you have a partner, that you're with friends, family, whatever it may be you need to feel comfortable speaking to them about these things.
00:22:19.453 --> 00:22:28.611
I think too, recognizing that, like financial traumas, financial burdens, they are real, that you're not lazy, you're not broken.
00:22:28.611 --> 00:22:32.156
This is not something that has to be permanent.
00:22:32.156 --> 00:22:44.433
I've spoken about this on many of our episodes, but my college graduation gift was my parents paying off my credit card that I racked up to $10,000.
00:22:44.433 --> 00:22:45.817
And it was.
00:22:45.817 --> 00:22:58.941
I didn't buy anything lavish, I didn't buy anything big, but I, my habits were swipe, swipe, swipe I'll figure it out later and that's something that I've had to learn, and I know we always joke about wants versus need.
00:22:58.941 --> 00:23:10.520
Well, I wanted and needed a lot, okay, so you know, this is not me coming from a place of like I've done everything perfectly and no, I've had to learn the hard lessons.
00:23:10.520 --> 00:23:44.954
Same with me, I've had to learn them as well is, you know, start by giving yourself grace, start by communicating, especially if you are in a partnership, because the reality is is, if you're carrying this burden, your partner is carrying it as well, and so, being honest, being vulnerable, like Brandon just spoke about, I think, is really important, and you have to forgive yourself from how you got there and start with small steps.
00:23:44.954 --> 00:23:46.844
You have to start small.
00:23:46.844 --> 00:23:49.333
This is and we talk about this on the pod all the time too.
00:23:49.333 --> 00:23:49.773
It's not.
00:23:50.194 --> 00:23:52.000
Hey, I need to save $100,000.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:54.211
You need to start by saving $5.
00:23:54.211 --> 00:23:59.431
Yeah, you know, like if you've been stacking your your mail and you're scared to open it.
00:23:59.431 --> 00:24:03.377
I'm going to open five letters today and I'm going to see what they say.
00:24:03.377 --> 00:24:06.564
I'm going to log into my savings account, my checking account.
00:24:06.564 --> 00:24:16.015
I'm going to consolidate all of my 401ks that I've been putting off.
00:24:16.015 --> 00:24:17.998
Consolidating Like it can be a small thing, but decide on one thing to do.
00:24:17.998 --> 00:24:21.023
You could decide to do it every day, once a week.
00:24:21.023 --> 00:24:23.374
Don't overwhelm yourself and stick to it.
00:24:24.095 --> 00:24:31.476
Yeah, long-term progress is simply a composition of small intermediate progress.
00:24:31.476 --> 00:24:32.880
That's really all it is Like.
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.373
Think about it, if you're running if you're running a mile a mile.
00:24:35.373 --> 00:24:37.778
It consists of just steps after step.
00:24:37.778 --> 00:24:40.523
So you focusing on?
00:24:40.523 --> 00:24:53.416
I think what happens is sometimes people want they may be in, like, for example, they may be in so much debt and they'll just focus on the overall number say $20,000 in debt, and they're just focused on the $20,000 number, and that's what paralyzes them from doing anything.
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