Dec. 3, 2025

116: Five Signs You Need Financial Therapy

116: Five Signs You Need Financial Therapy
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Season 4

Most people think their money problems come from a lack of budgeting. But what if the real issue is emotional?

In this powerful episode, Jessica and Brandon sit down with Aja Evans, LMHC, a licensed financial therapist and author of Feel Good Finance, to break down 5 surprising signs you might need financial therapy.

We talk about:

  • The link between money trauma and poor financial decisions
  • Why budgeting alone doesn’t break bad habits
  • How emotional avoidance shows up in your bank account
  • What to expect in your first financial therapy session
  • Aja’s personal story from stress to success

Whether you’re anxious about spending, stuck in shame about debt, or always feel like “it’s never enough,” this episode will help you understand the deeper story behind your financial behaviors.

Get Aja’s book: Feel Good Finance

Connect with Aja on IG

Connect with Aja on LinkedIn

Head over to our YouTube channel to catch this episode in full video form.

Apply to be a guest on the show.

You can also email us at: thesugardaddypodcast@gmail.com

Connect with us on Instagram
We’re most active over at @thesugardaddypodcast

Chat with Brandon
Want to work together? Learn more about Brandon

Book a free 30-min call to see if it's a fit.

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Money, relationships, and the mindset to master both. Hosted by financial advisor Brandon and his wife Jessica, The Sugar Daddy Podcast breaks down how to build wealth, unpack old money beliefs, and have real conversations about love and finances. Our mission? To help couples and individuals grow rich in every sense of the word: emotionally, relationally and financially.

Chapters

00:00 - Money Is Emotional

01:43 - Why Bring In A Financial Therapist

03:26 - Meet Asia Evans And Her Mission

06:46 - First Money Memory And Confidence

12:30 - City vs Suburb Money Upbringing

17:12 - Asia’s New York Awakening To Debt

24:20 - Minimum Payments And Student Loan Myths

30:55 - Predatory Systems And Missing Education

35:31 - From Blogs To Financial Therapy Calling

41:00 - Getting Help And Writing The Book

46:38 - What’s Inside Feel Good Finance

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.799
You might need to take a break here, get your tissues, have a moment because this is hard work that we're doing.

00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:10.320
And it is very emotional because money is emotional.

00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:13.519
And money is emotional because people are emotional.

00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:20.239
And I think we forget that, especially with, you know, the outdated rhetoric that says money isn't emotional.

00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:21.359
It's just about numbers.

00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:22.480
And it's not.

00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:23.519
It's about your family.

00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:24.879
It's about how you were taught.

00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:29.600
It's about what they had access to and how you implement that in your life every day.

00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:31.519
Sugar teddy podcast, yo.

00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:34.320
Learn how to make them pockets grow.

00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:36.640
Financial freedoms where we go.

00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:39.280
Smart investments, money flow.

00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:41.679
Hey, babe.

00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:43.359
What are we talking about today?

00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:49.280
Today we are talking about a subject that keeps coming up because it's so important.

00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:52.880
And that is money and emotions.

00:00:53.359 --> 00:01:02.799
But we are now wrapping expertise around it because we we are not counselors, we are not therapists, we are not psychologists.

00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:05.840
Uh we are like sometimes you are.

00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:10.879
Sometimes I feel like it, even though I do not have the credentials, credentials and I do not want the credentials.

00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:11.840
Right.

00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:16.959
So that is why we bring on experts who actually know what they're talking about in this field.

00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:24.879
But we know that people have blocks, like emotional blocks, traumas that come with their money.

00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:46.159
And so working with a financial therapist can be a way to kind of get you into a place of actually understanding your money mindset and understanding why and how you feel about money and where that comes from so that you can work through it and hopefully release some of that so that you can make the progress that you want when it comes to your money.

00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:50.000
And so today we're really excited because we have Asia Evans with us.

00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:51.840
She is a financial therapist.

00:01:51.920 --> 00:02:03.280
We're going to be talking about all of the things we can do to unblock some of that money crud that we keep in our heads and in our minds that are keeping us from reaching our goals.

00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:05.599
So, Asia, thank you for being with us today.

00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:07.439
Thank you so much for having me.

00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:10.319
I'm so excited to dive in and meet you both.

00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:17.039
I feel like we've been in similar circles and close to each other and in proximity, but not able to come together.

00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:18.560
So I'm glad to talk today.

00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:19.759
Yay, I know.

00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:33.120
It's so funny because we often feel like you do know somebody because of, you know, the following on social media and we're always like in each other's DMs, and then you realize, oh wait, we actually haven't met.

00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:35.520
So it's so great to be together today.

00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:36.159
Yay.

00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:42.319
Well, let's get into your bio so that everybody understands who we're talking to and why we're so excited to chat with you today.

00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:49.520
Asia Evans is a licensed mental health counselor, speaker, and author, specializing in financial therapy.

00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:59.759
After experiencing her own financial awakening, which we will get into, she discovered the profound connection between money and mental health, one that too many people overlook.

00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:11.039
With 15 years of experience, Asia is dedicated to breaking the taboo around money and emotions, empowering people to have honest, transformative conversations about their finances.

00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:21.439
Her debut book, Feel Good Finance, helps readers connect their life experiences to their financial habits, offering a deeper understanding of why they spend the way they do.

00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:31.280
In addition to her private practice, Asia serves as president of the board of the Financial Therapy Association and writes Finance and Focus, a monthly newsletter for Square.

00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:38.960
A sought-after expert in her field, she has been featured in the New York Times, Business Insider, Nerd Wallet, Time, and Teen Vogue.

00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:46.800
She is on a mission to help people live their best lives by becoming more attuned to their thoughts, emotions, and behaviors around money.

00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:54.319
When she's not working, you can find Asia chasing after two young children as they embark on their latest food adventure.

00:03:54.639 --> 00:04:02.000
You might have to teach us about how you're getting your kids to be foodies because I want nothing more in life, and my kids eat like five things each.

00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:02.879
So if that.

00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:04.400
We'll do that on a different episode.

00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:06.879
Yeah, and I'm like, honestly, they're not.

00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:07.840
Oh, okay.

00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:10.000
It's your food adventure.

00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:10.800
Got it.

00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:11.120
Okay.

00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:17.199
We're trying, you know, we're always giving them a little bit, but they're not definitely not the foodies I aspire for them to be.

00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:17.839
Exactly.

00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:18.240
Okay.

00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:20.399
So we'll table that because same.

00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:21.199
Exactly.

00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:25.199
Well, Asia, you have had a financial awakening.

00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:29.519
So we want to get into that, but let's kick off with your first money memory.

00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.720
And if they coincide, you know, we can take it from there too.

00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:35.120
But we'd love to hear your first money memory.

00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:36.000
Yeah.

00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:45.519
So I think my first money memory actually isn't my memory, but at this point it's like coded into my brain and it feels like it's my memory.

00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:47.439
So I just put that out there, right?

00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:51.120
Memory is so interesting and weird, and we just, it's wild.

00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:56.639
So um I think at this time, the story goes.

00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:03.360
I think I was around eight and I had gone grocery shopping with one of my friends.

00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:07.040
And thinking about that now, this is so different than the way we live now.

00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:10.959
Like when we slept over our friend's house, we were doing everything with their family.

00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:17.120
So we were going grocery shopping or going out to eat or to somebody's practice, even if it wasn't your friend, right?

00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:17.759
So different.

00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.160
Now I'm like, I probably would never take my own.

00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.319
Yeah, like you're not taking my kid in a car.

00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:23.519
Like, absolutely not.

00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:23.759
Yeah.

00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:25.519
We just don't do that anymore.

00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:31.279
But growing up as an elder millennial, this is very much so the norm of what we were doing.

00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:33.600
So I was in the grocery store with a friend.

00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:37.839
I think um her mom was checking out and I had money.

00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:40.879
And at that time, spending it was the best thing you could do.

00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:43.120
So it's like, oh, I'm going to buy myself something.

00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:47.439
So I think I was buying like candy or a bag of chips or something of that nature.

00:05:47.759 --> 00:06:00.160
And what I believe that I remember was just the exchange of me like giving the money to um the cashier at the time and just, you know, doing the normal exchange, getting the change back and like moving out with my day.

00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:04.800
And my friend was like, Asia, I cannot believe you were able to go do that.

00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:06.240
I would have been so nervous.

00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.920
You talked to this adult, you exchanged money, all these things.

00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:13.120
Like, I can't believe you were confident enough to do that.

00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:15.199
And I was like, Well, what do you mean?

00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:17.759
Like, this is you should.

00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:20.319
You should feel okay doing this.

00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:27.360
And I just thought that was so interesting that it was something that she wouldn't ever think to do alone at that age.

00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:32.079
Um so yeah, that's my first money memory, I believe.

00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:35.839
So, how were you confident at the age of eight?

00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:38.959
Like, is that something that you did with your family?

00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:44.000
You know, were you often exchanging, exchanging money at the register?

00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:45.839
And was that something you were taught?

00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:47.839
Or where did that come from?

00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:49.040
Yeah, great question.

00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:53.839
And as I'm thinking about it now, I think um it really is about more so upbringing.

00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:56.480
So this is gonna sound tangential, but we'll get there.

00:06:56.800 --> 00:07:02.720
Both of my parents are from New York City, which matters in my story, which we'll get to and around my financial awakening.

00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:08.560
Even though I grew up in upstate New York, we were coming down to New York City very frequently.

00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.279
So I'm talking at least once or twice a month.

00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:19.040
So in on the weekends when I was here, I was running around Brooklyn with a pack of kids.

00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:27.920
So the same way that your auntie would say hello and slip you a little something, something, that was in the pocket for the weekend.

00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:30.879
And we were always going to the corner store.

00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:32.879
We were always getting penny cent candy.

00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:36.560
We were filling up bags, like brown paper bags filled with candy.

00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:41.759
So I didn't think about it before, but that is probably exactly where it came from.

00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:47.600
Like I was very comfortable just walking down the street to the corner store and buying.

00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:49.519
Oh my God, were those like little juicies?

00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:50.800
Remember the little juice ones?

00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:51.920
They look like little barrels.

00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:52.720
Yes.

00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:53.199
Right?

00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:54.000
What were those called?

00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:54.480
Oh my god.

00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:59.839
With the little squeezy, like it had no, it didn't have a squeezy, it had a uminal, yeah, aluminum.

00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:01.600
Okay, okay.

00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:04.800
Well, I didn't I grew up in Europe, so we weren't drinking.

00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:05.680
This was different.

00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:08.399
This is the Kool-Aid filled dye beverages.

00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:09.439
That's interesting.

00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:15.839
It was it was like a quarter of 50 cents, and then you would get a bag of candy.

00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:31.279
So I grew up with that experience, um, which is very common for a kid in the city, but then you go upstate to New Ustate New York, and I grew up in the city of Albany, which is where I'm from, but I was hanging out in the suburbs because that's where my school was.

00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:38.399
So now I'm like, oh, no wonder why that felt very foreign to her, but not foreign to me, because I was a bay based kid in Brooklyn.

00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:39.600
I love that.

00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:41.919
That's interesting though, because I didn't grow up in the city.

00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:51.360
I grew up in Raleigh, the suburbs, and we would still just ride like from my neighborhood, we would ride our bikes up to, like, you know, at the time, the car drug and buy candy there.

00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:59.039
So, you know, as kids, we would still get that interaction of buying candy on our own and um interacting with the teller, uh, with the uh cashier and stuff like that.

00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:03.039
So it's interesting that they didn't even do that in the suburbs of Albany, though.

00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:05.759
I mean, at least not this friend.

00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:08.240
Somebody might have been doing it, but this friend was not.

00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:17.600
But I think it's it's such a great call out because you have to be mindful of what, you know, it's it's something simple, but you can be taught, right?

00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:25.519
So, like even if we take our kids to mod pizza, right, for example, which they love, if we're together, I make them order their pizza.

00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:27.840
Like you need to learn how to talk to adults.

00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:29.440
What do you want on your pizza?

00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:30.159
You know?

00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:37.120
And or as they get older, I've been seeing a lot of videos of, you know, hey, now you're in high school, make your own dentist appointment.

00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:38.399
Here's what you're gonna need.

00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:42.080
Here's how you look at your calendar, here are the numbers on your insurance card.

00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:44.320
I don't know that I was taught that.

00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:47.840
I mean, maybe through like, you know, I heard it.

00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:49.919
Yeah, I don't think it was like intentional.

00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:51.120
It's just how things were.

00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:59.360
But I think now when everything is online, it's mobile, our kids don't really hear those conversations because we're making the appointments while they're at school.

00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:04.399
We need to be more proactive about actually teaching them how to do that.

00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:06.720
Like, here's what your insurance card looks like.

00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:11.279
Here's the, you know, here's the information they're gonna be asking you, your name, your date of birth, etc.

00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:20.399
So I love that even at such a young age, your friend realized that you have a skill that she yet she doesn't yet, assuming it was another girl.

00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:22.639
But um really interesting.

00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:23.600
I love that.

00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:24.720
I love that.

00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:28.000
Can we get into your money awakening?

00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:32.159
Because I feel like that's gonna take us into our conversation really well.

00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:33.519
Yeah, absolutely.

00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:40.480
So I um spent my time in upstate New York, but was very comfortable in New York City.

00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:50.399
So eventually, after grad school and a ton of time in school, just in general, I finally found my way into living um in the city.

00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:54.320
And it was probably in my mid to late 20s.

00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:57.200
And at that time, I was so excited to be there.

00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:04.799
I was making$60,000, which at the time felt like an astronomical amount of money.

00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:06.799
Um, I didn't have any kids.

00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.360
I didn't have a husband or a boyfriend.

00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:10.960
I was not partnered in any way.

00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:13.200
It was just me living on that.

00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:16.159
And I thought that I could be able to afford everything.

00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:18.480
I thought I was making it.

00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:28.080
Um, and in New York City, you are not making it as much as you think you are on 60,000, which is very hard to believe, right?

00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:34.799
Because for a lot of people, that's it is higher than the national average of like wages and salary that people are making.

00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.919
But in New York, that it ain't it.

00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:38.960
It ain't it.

00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:42.399
Listen, it ain't it in 2025 in most places.

00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:44.240
I don't know how people are doing it.

00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:46.399
So so, so hard.

00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:51.679
But I thought I could do it and I did, and I was making it rain.

00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:56.399
I was sending out my laundry, I was still paying for my cars, paying my student loans.

00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:01.840
I was going out to brunch and then dinner and going shopping and going to happy hour.

00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:03.679
I was paying for a gym membership.

00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:09.919
I set my life up to be what I defined as wealthy at the time.

00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:11.200
Right.

00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:16.720
And then I was starting to just look and be like, why are my credit cards paying going away?

00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:18.080
I'm paying the minimums.

00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:19.120
What's going on?

00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:21.759
I feel like I've been paying my car forever.

00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:22.639
What's going on?

00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:24.320
My student loans aren't moving.

00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:26.559
Like, what's happening?

00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:32.000
And what was going on was that I didn't know anything about money.

00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:34.879
And I did not understand debt.

00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.200
I didn't understand debt to income ratio.

00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:38.159
I just didn't know.

00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:44.000
I had no real concrete financial education besides like, hey, you should save.

00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:48.320
And it was starting to bite me in the ass, honestly.

00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:56.080
And it was with a conversation that I talk about actually in the book with my cousin, who is also in like the personal finance community.

00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.240
And he had always loved money.

00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:02.799
And I saw him in Easter at the same relative that I was running around with.

00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:05.679
He was the cousin, one of the cousins I was running around with when I was younger.

00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:14.559
And he was like, Asia, like, why don't you just start trying to be a little bit more intentional about learning about money and just see what's going on?

00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:22.720
And once you start learning, you will start understanding more about where your money's going, where it's not going, and where you want it to be going.

00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.480
And that just lit a fire for me.

00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.440
That's when I was like, okay, I'm gonna start reading.

00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:33.759
And the information was not nearly as readily available as it is now.

00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:41.440
So I was reading random blogs, I was Googling, I was going down these holes of personal financial information, and I just fell in love.

00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:42.639
I loved it.

00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:50.240
And for a while I thought um I was gonna become a CFP and like go down that route, but that didn't feel right either.

00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:55.200
So that was the beginning of my financial awakening and starting to understand.

00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:59.120
I'm like, oh, you feel bad when you have to say no to something.

00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:08.799
You feel like your self-esteem isn't as high when you can't afford something or you're swiping on a hope and a prayer, thinking, I hope it goes through.

00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:10.159
I'll never forget.

00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:12.240
And I talk about this in the book as well.

00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:28.159
Checking my Blackberry, trying to get into my Chase account, checking my BlackBerry underneath the table during a group dinner, hoping I have enough money in my account as the woman's like walking away with like five cards to split the bill.

00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.639
And that anxiety, I was like, this is not how I'm meant to live.

00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:37.279
But that was all around the same time of having this financial awakening.

00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:43.039
Can I just say if BlackBerry like really made a comeback, I would go back to Blackberry.

00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:44.639
Let just let the record stay.

00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:46.799
I loved my Blackberry.

00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:47.919
I loved my BBM.

00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:49.919
Like, just let the record stay.

00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:50.320
Okay.

00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:53.600
Um I mean, full keyboard right there, so easy.

00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:54.159
Come on.

00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:54.879
Thank you.

00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:56.000
Thank you.

00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:13.360
I think a lot of people now forget how hard how much harder it was to access all this information around personal finance, you know, 10, 15 years ago, where like a lot of this stuff as far as being able to find podcasts, a lot more information online.

00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:14.720
This is a newer thing.

00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:17.360
So like, you know, you're really having to dig the article.

00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:25.360
I'm 42 years old, like, you know, back in, you know, 2005, 2008 time frame, like this was not a thing.

00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:29.120
It was a lot, you had to do a you had to be a lot more intentional about searching for the information.

00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:29.759
Yeah.

00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:32.879
And there weren't a lot of people talking about it.

00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.120
You know, like it w it was not our age.

00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:37.519
No, they're all a bunch of older white people.

00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:38.399
Yes.

00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:40.399
So much Dave Ramsey, everywhere.

00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:41.039
He was everywhere.

00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:42.000
And Susie Orman.

00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:44.080
Yes, truly.

00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:49.519
And I I remember Business Insider was always talking about people paying off their debt.

00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:50.000
Always.

00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:54.720
They had a ton of stories about money at that time that I was always checking regularly.

00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:58.080
And I got a lot of information reading Learn Vest blogs.

00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:02.799
Like those were kind of like my two go-to places where I'm like, okay, let's get this information.

00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:04.639
And then a few other places here and there.

00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:10.799
But at that time, um, yeah, it was not easily accessible.

00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.480
So you had this conversation with your cousin.

00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:23.440
Was he able to provide any guidance of, you know, budgeting, tracking, paying more than the minimums on those credit cards?

00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:27.519
It sounds like those were kind of racking up um the, you know, the balance.

00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:30.720
Or was he just like, hey, you should start researching?

00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:34.399
And then you went and did that and just figured it out on your own?

00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:35.440
Um, that.

00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:38.559
And I see this because we literally had this conversation.

00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:43.120
I think at the time he had like two small kids, one on the way.

00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:45.840
Like, we were not having a sit-down conversation.

00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.360
This was like amongst tons of family and chaos.

00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:56.480
And he just kind of like dropped this little nugget for me, and I just was like, okay, thank you, and took it and ran.

00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.399
Um but yeah, it was like he did not have the time, the moment.

00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:02.320
I can't imagine in that.

00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:15.759
A big thing too is that I think sometimes, especially back then, we automatically assume that, for example, if we're borrowing money, student loans, credit cards, that the payments were set up in a reasonable time frame for us to pay them off.

00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:17.759
We thought that that's how it was set up.

00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:18.240
Right.

00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:20.400
Make the minimum and eventually it'll go away.

00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.799
That is not at all how a credit card is set up.

00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:23.119
No.

00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:26.559
Minimum payments will have you paying that balance down for like 20 years.

00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:27.279
Truly.

00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:29.839
And this is like a real lesson for student loans.

00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.680
And student loans got me more than like credit card debt at the time.

00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:35.440
Um, I still have my student loans.

00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:40.640
I'm still paying them down because my life looks very, very different than it did then.

00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.839
Um, and I didn't know because I really did believe.

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.759
Like that, and I'm so glad that you brought that up because that's such a great point.

00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.720
I believe that if I paid that minimum, my student loans would be paid off in 10 years.

00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:55.839
Like I truly thought that was the case.

00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:10.480
And I hadn't like really dug into that before starting to write Feel Good Finance and talk about all the things that were coming up for me and how I felt about my debt and how it was impacting my own self-esteem or sleep or just feeling really bad about it.

00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:11.599
But you're right.

00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:16.240
Like we're we're also kind of this bill of goods, like, hey, pay the minimum and it will go away.

00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:17.039
And that's what it is.

00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:19.119
Like you'll pay it down in time and you'll be done.

00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:23.279
Not you'll pay it down for 20, 30, 40, forever.

00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:26.240
Um, and then it will go away.

00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:26.799
But no.

00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:28.400
I honestly believe that.

00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:38.240
So, for example, the community out there of people who didn't take out student loans or didn't go to college, so therefore obviously didn't take out student loans, are like, you know, if you took out student loans, you should pay it, it shouldn't be forgiven.

00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:44.640
They, I think they thoroughly think that at 18 years old, we were sat down and completely explained how this loan works.

00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.359
That is not at all the process for taking out a student loan.

00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.839
No one is sitting you down and talking you through all the different things that a student loan entails.

00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.720
And one, the student loan is the most complicated loan that there is out there.

00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:58.319
But then, like I said, no one has explained this to you at 18 years old.

00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:02.000
All you're thinking is that I need money to go to college so that I can have a better life.

00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:03.119
You go ahead and do that.

00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.559
And then even upon graduating, no one is explaining to you how this loan works.

00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:12.640
You have their grace periods, you have forbearance, you have deferment, you can also loan payments, you can all the time.

00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:13.920
And it's so much.

00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:14.960
It's so much.

00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:15.920
It's unbelievable.

00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:22.160
So too, like I remember there were times when and you just have no clue.

00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:29.519
I think there's a misconception that it was always before you got to college, you're sitting down and filling out your student loan information.

00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:30.640
No, no, no.

00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:41.200
You are accepted into your school, you fill that the FASFA, maybe before, but you don't always know how much money you're getting, and you don't always know how much it is going to cost.

00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:43.119
So you get a tuition bill.

00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:46.559
You're already enrolled in school, you're already thinking you're going.

00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:56.960
And in the first two weeks or so, you may still have a bill if your parents didn't either pay the whole thing or if something came up or housing cost was a little bit more.

00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.200
I remember sitting in those offices.

00:19:59.359 --> 00:19:59.519
Yeah.

00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:04.079
And it's pretty much like, oh, you're at school, which for me was three hours away from home.

00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:09.839
You're sitting in the registrar office and like, hey, you have an overage of XYZ money.

00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:10.880
What are you going to do?

00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:12.799
Here, you can sign up for this loan.

00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:19.119
And it is literally sign up for this loan, or you have to go home and you are not in school anymore.

00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:22.240
So yeah, I was like, okay, well, what loan is it?

00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:22.880
Okay, what?

00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:23.759
Sure.

00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:25.359
I distinctly remember.

00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:32.400
So before I got into finance when I first moved back to North Carolina in 2008, 2009, like, terrible time to try to find a job.

00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.079
I was managing a shoe store.

00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:38.880
And I remember my um assistant uh manager was a med student.

00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:43.920
And I remember him coming in, like in the middle of a shift, he was like looking extremely distraught.

00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:49.920
His student loan was an issue in regards to paying for his medical school, and like he just couldn't think straight, obviously.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:52.559
So I was like, you need to go home, figure this out, all that stuff.

00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:58.880
But like, like you said, you you're already enrolled in school, and it doesn't mean that it's necessarily always going to all go through properly.

00:20:59.039 --> 00:20:59.519
Mm-hmm.

00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:00.160
Yeah.

00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:06.720
And I mean, if I'm being honest, like I don't think our most parents know anything about the student loan process.

00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:10.319
I mean, there should be an entire My mom's the exceptional because she was in higher education.

00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:25.759
But there should be an entire course that students and parents can go through or should be required to go through online learning, some e-modules about what this loan means, what is it to actually pay this off, how long is it going to take you?

00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.680
I mean, all of those things.

00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:32.720
But aside from that, it it was very predatory back in the day.

00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:35.200
There was a lack of education for sure.

00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:42.240
And I think, you know, that's why us as elder millennials, so many of us are still carrying student loan balances, you know?

00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:50.960
And now when you look at things in comparison to, okay, maybe I have a 3% interest rate or a 6% interest rate in the grand scheme of things.

00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:56.960
Of course, we all want to get rid of these terrible loans, but it's not a high interest loan.

00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:02.160
And so for a lot of us, it's, I mean, you hear it all the time on social media like, I'm gonna take these to my grave.

00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:04.160
Like it doesn't even matter anymore, you know?

00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:13.680
I mean, I was I was literally reading an article yesterday talking about how thankfully they're not going to um garnish Social Security payments to pay for student loans.

00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:14.640
Now think about it.

00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.960
Think about you are still paying student loans and taking social social media.

00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:20.319
That should not be a thing.

00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:21.599
That is crazy.

00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.200
Absolutely absurd.

00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:30.720
Okay, let's let's move off of the student loans because we we could both easily Yeah, I know, we could stay there for forever.

00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:37.039
So you had this awakening, you started reading all the blogs, books, things that you could get your hands on.

00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:41.200
What steps did you actually take?

00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:46.160
I mean, there had to be something in between, oh my gosh, I can't continue to live like this.

00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:49.200
I'm trying to ball out of control, but this is not the reality.

00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:54.480
To hey, I wrote a finance book because I'm really good at this and now I want to help other people.

00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:56.559
What is that journey?

00:22:57.039 --> 00:22:58.240
A lot of life, right?

00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.720
A lot of life, a lot of time in between that.

00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:15.519
So I, and when I say like I was only reading money books, like I was quite literally only consuming financial education money books up until maybe I think last year.

00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:21.839
So this was a good eight years of me just reading like money books for fun.

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:24.480
Like the same reason, the same way people are reading other books.

00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:26.160
I was like, they're like, what are you reading?

00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:28.319
I'm like, the millionaire next door.

00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:29.359
Yeah.

00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:31.920
Just reading all of these books.

00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:48.000
So it was probably about five years ago that I was thinking about it more and still loving money stuff and wanting to dive in more, and also just realizing that my clients were talking about money more frequently.

00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.880
Five years ago, also what there was, you know, a major global event for all of us.

00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:55.680
That was also the time I had a six-month-old.

00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:02.000
I had quit my job because I was going full-time private practice and COVID hit all like all insane time.

00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:02.480
Wow.

00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:10.400
Um and I was like, I think this is, I want to talk more about this in a a different type of way.

00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:12.960
I don't want to just kind of bring it up in passing.

00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:18.079
I want people to know that they can come to me for financial therapy to talk about.

00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:30.240
And I didn't know how to kind of put it together until I found um the Financial Therapy Association and I found Trauma of Money, and I also found the Center for Financial Social Work.

00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:37.519
And going through those trainings and having these kinds of conversations, I was like, this is actually what I want to be doing.

00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:43.599
This is where the sweet spot, this is what I want to talk to people about and have been talking to people about.

00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:44.960
I just didn't know what it was called.

00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.559
I didn't know this was a thing.

00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:52.880
Um, so that's when I really just shifted my practice and it shifted my whole career.

00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.240
At that time, you know, I didn't even know I wanted to write a book.

00:24:56.319 --> 00:24:57.200
Like I had no idea.

00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:59.359
I'm like, I don't have enough things to say about anything.

00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:00.799
How could I possibly?

00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:03.599
Um, but I'm the queen of just try.

00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:10.160
I'm the queen of, you know, throw the spaghetti at the wall, see if it sticks, see what you can do, figure it out.

00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:20.160
So I had, you know, done my website and I had hired a kind of like a blog coach, a writing coach, because I was like, I'm not a writer, I don't know what I'm talking about.

00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:27.920
I need somebody to help me make sure my grammar is okay and make sure I can put this out in public and you know, do all the right things.

00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:32.480
And I remember saying to her in passing, like, yeah, one day I think I want to write a book.

00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:33.839
I don't know where this came from.

00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:35.279
It just came out of me.

00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:36.240
I don't know.

00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:42.079
And months later, into us working together, she was like, Well, Asia, let me know when you want to write the book.

00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:43.200
And I was like, Let's do it.

00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:46.720
Again, I don't know where this came from.

00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:48.640
It just came out of my mouth.

00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.759
And from that point, it literally was just put one foot in front of the other.

00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:58.400
And then I was like, Okay, I have a book proposal.

00:25:58.559 --> 00:25:59.680
You know, this is months, right?

00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:00.880
People, this takes a long time.

00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:04.079
So then I was like, I have a book proposal.

00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:13.279
Okay, I'm gonna just try and send it out to 20 combination of editors, agents, um, and publishing houses and just send it to 20.

00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:20.319
And I'll know what people think about the concept, think about the book, and whether this is a yes or a very hard no.

00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.880
And then um Ben Bella came back and they wanted to buy the book.

00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:29.839
And then I was like, wait, I think I have a book to and I'll never forget sitting in this meeting.

00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:34.720
Um, and I still work with some of these team members now, so they can we laugh about it now.

00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:39.359
But I was in this meeting thinking they just wanted to know more about me or the book.

00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:43.440
And then I was like, oh my God, I think they are pitching me.

00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:46.880
I think this is a meeting that they are courting me.

00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.440
And I was like, oh my God, I did it.

00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:50.960
I'm gonna get a book deal.

00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.400
And that was the beginning of Feel Good Finance.

00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:55.680
I love that.

00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:04.960
You said a lot of things that I want to dive into, but the first thing that stuck out and that we talk about a lot on the podcast is getting help.

00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:12.079
So you said you hired a coach to help you with something that you knew was not your area of expertise.

00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.519
And we talk about filling the gap, paying for help.

00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:22.079
I think a lot of people have, again, we're talking about money, but have a block in paying for help, right?

00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:33.519
Whether it's a coach, somebody to make their website, somebody to actually hold their hand through the financial portfolio process, investing, saving, paying down debt, those kinds of things.

00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.480
Um, so I love that you called out, hey, I hired somebody to help me with this.

00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:52.559
And I'm sure, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you agree that your process of getting to that book deal that you didn't even know you wanted was expedited because you had somebody helping you along the way?

00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:53.200
Yeah.

00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:56.880
Um, that book would have never been made without Kim.

00:27:57.200 --> 00:28:00.400
Like I and I get emotional thinking about it because it is the truth.

00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:07.440
And it's not even just getting to the point of a book proposal, but it's I had no clue.

00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:10.960
Like this is not, oh, I have a few friends in publishing and I could talk.

00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:12.640
No, that was not my story.

00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:19.279
I had not an idea, I didn't even know what a book proposal was or how to write one or what you're doing.

00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:24.960
And after that process and getting the book deal, it's also then you have to write a book.

00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:25.440
Yeah.

00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:37.359
And I needed help to just be like, how do I take these ideas that are swirling around and get them on paper in a way that's cohesive and it makes sense?

00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:42.640
Um, and there's so much work that goes into a book and so much editing, and it's hard.

00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:44.640
You're doing this for like two years.

00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:49.200
Like from signing the book deal to when the book was published, it was about two years.

00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:56.079
So it's a long time of typing away alone at home, hoping this makes sense.

00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:58.799
I I could not have done that without somebody else.

00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:02.160
So um find the right people, but pay them.

00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:02.960
Pay them.

00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:03.440
Yeah.

00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:10.880
Getting professional help is the cheat code because you don't have to waste time and money trying to figure it out on your own.

00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:22.400
Well, and the time that you usually waste is you're doing your own due diligence, weeding through what is real, well, like what is good advice, what is bad advice, and how do you apply it for your particular situation?

00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:24.240
So thank you for calling that out.

00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:27.519
I would love to talk about what's in feel good finance.

00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:30.799
So it's behind you, it's beautiful, it's done, you can buy it.

00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:32.799
We'll of course link it in the show notes.

00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.599
What's in it?

00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:38.000
Because at first you said, well, I don't even have enough to write a book, but you clearly did.

00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:40.799
I very much so do, and apparently have more to say.

00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:42.480
So I love it.

00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:53.680
Um so feel good finance really is what I needed in New York City when I was a 20 something, trying to understand what was going on with my money.

00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:59.759
And it's not, there are some numbers, but it really is almost like you're sitting down for with me doing.

00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:01.440
Doing financial therapy.

00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:02.799
I sound like myself.

00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:04.319
I use bad language.

00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:06.559
I make makeup stories.

00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:09.039
Like I'm just having a good time in the book.

00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:24.400
But I really wanted it to feel like for somebody who, for whatever reason, can't come see me because I can't see everybody, that you could still get to some of the core principles of financial therapy and your money story and your money baggage by reading the book.

00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:39.440
So it takes you along understanding all of the nuances and layers and the complexities of your own story, of your family's history that then create your money beliefs that then kind of show up in your life every day.

00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:42.240
So for some people, it's money avoidance.

00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:44.400
For some people, it's hoarding their money.

00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:52.559
And, you know, I go through each chapter has a few different examples with clients that I've worked with who are de-identified as you can imagine.

00:30:52.799 --> 00:31:02.559
Um, but it goes through what their stories are and what it looks like to start really having to ask those hard questions that you may not have asked yourself before.

00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:19.519
Are there, I would love to learn more about some of the money principles you just mentioned, but is it as I'm reading the book, are there lots of questions and prompts, maybe journaling opportunities to really have those kind of intimate moments with yourself to figure out the root cause of some of these issues?

00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:20.720
Yes, exactly.

00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:35.920
So um they're at each of chapter will have a reflection section, but there's also kind of like call-out boxes to just be like, hey, listen, you might need to take a break here, get your tissues, have a moment because this is hard work that we're doing.

00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:39.519
And it is very emotional because money is emotional.

00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.720
And money is emotional because people are emotional.

00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:50.559
And I think we forget that, especially with, you know, the outdated rhetoric that says money isn't emotional, it's just about numbers.

00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:59.279
And it's not, it's about your family, it's about how you were taught, it's about what they had access to and how you implement that in your life every day.

00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:01.039
Yeah, absolutely.

00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:05.440
And financial therapy is a fairly new, you know, thing.

00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:14.079
I would honestly, I would even say comprehensive financial planning is still new because I would say maybe past 25 years, if that, as far as the way that we do it now.

00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:16.720
So financial therapy is an even so much newer thing.

00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.920
And I think a lot of people actually that they need to start there.

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:24.319
They need to start the financial therapy before going to see a financial advisor or financial planner.

00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:29.279
Yeah, ideally, because I think a lot of times people have a lot of money baggage that they're not aware of.

00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:40.559
And they think by like, you know, making the money moves and talking to the advisor or the planner and getting the information, and it's great information, but what stops you from taking it?

00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:48.160
And a lot of people are sitting in front of their financial team, not taking their advice.

00:32:48.319 --> 00:33:00.240
And I know this is very hard for people like you who are dealing with it, who are like, we are talking about this constantly, and I'll talk about it with you, but what is going on?

00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:03.519
And that's where financial therapy comes up.

00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:06.319
Why is it hard for you to move that money?

00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.160
Why is it just sitting in a checking account?

00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:09.519
Like, what's going on?

00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:11.279
And let's dive into that.

00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:29.279
And a lot of times it's coming from very deep-rooted, very um, sometimes just sad and hard life experiences that they've had to go through, that they're like, listen, this is about my safety, and it does not feel safe to me if it's invested because it could go away.

00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:31.440
Um, so they don't move their money.

00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:37.519
I've had clients who are sitting on tens of thousands of dollars in a regular savings account.

00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:42.480
I was like, girl, no, we must move that, at least move it to a high yield.

00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:53.200
Like, I we are gonna work to get you to work with a planner and eventually move it into investments, but we cannot just have this sitting in like a regular, Degular savings account.

00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:54.079
Absolutely not.

00:33:54.400 --> 00:34:05.039
And I want to stress so much that, like, you know, I try my best to take into account behavioral finance and understand, you know, people's money history, money trauma, everything that comes with that.

00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:17.679
But I am nowhere near equipped to handle financial therapy as much as I would like to try to, because I've had clients that just aren't progressing and I've sat there and I've listened, you know, seen them cry, everything like that.

00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:20.800
But that I am not equipped to handle all that.

00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:22.000
Like I'm just not.

00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:32.159
And so, you know, if that's what's happening, and you're an individual, say, right, you're listening to this and you have a financial advisor and you're not taking action, maybe you need to reach out to a financial therapist.

00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.679
Maybe you need to reach out to Asia.

00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:34.079
Yeah.

00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:34.480
Yep.

00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:35.119
Where are you?

00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:36.719
Or read the book, you know?

00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:38.320
Like if it feels too hard.

00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:39.119
Yeah.

00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.000
Is there an audio version of the book?

00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:42.559
Yes.

00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:43.039
Yep.

00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:44.480
It it there is audio.

00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:45.440
It's available.

00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:47.840
Um, I think it is through Audible.

00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.760
I don't know if it's on Apple Books.

00:34:49.840 --> 00:34:50.480
I have to check.

00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:54.079
I try not to check on my book too often because it, you know, it can draw.

00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:55.119
Is it a trigger?

00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:55.679
Yeah.

00:34:56.079 --> 00:35:03.599
Um, I'm a big um audio book person because I'm always, you know, if I'm driving or walking the dog or on the go, that's when I get my my books in.

00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:09.840
But um at what point, if somebody says, Well, how do I know if I need a financial therapist?

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.039
What would you say?

00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:18.559
If you find yourself repeating the same old patterns that you do not want to repeat over and over and over again.

00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:25.519
And no matter what you do, no matter how you're budgeting, no matter how you're moving your money, you still are ending up in the place that you don't like.

00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:27.920
It might be time to talk to somebody like me.

00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:34.480
What about things like, you know, you mentioned even in your 20s in New York, right?

00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:40.400
You're starting to lose sleep, you're stressing, you're frantically checking, you know, your app under the table.

00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:49.599
I mean, I'm assuming if that's part of your day-to-day, you're losing sleep, you're avoiding opening your bills, checking on your act, you know, your actual accounts.

00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:53.840
Those are probably signs, if I had to guess, that it might be.

00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:04.960
You are isolating more.

00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:07.360
So you don't want to go out because you feel bad.

00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:10.400
You are drowning in shame around your money.

00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:12.159
You're just so shameful about it.

00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:16.480
And you feel like you can't, you can't hang out with your friends or that your friends don't care about you anymore.

00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:26.159
If you're like spiraling and crashing out about your money, now is the time to have those kinds of conversations or avoiding it, even though you have the money.

00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:30.800
Um, I have plenty of clients who are like, I have the money, but I never feel like I have enough.

00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:33.679
And I'm gonna just work myself to the bone.

00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:35.440
I will never have enough.

00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.039
You have the money, that's great, but it's still causing you stress.

00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:50.239
And I think that's something that we really need to highlight is I think there's this idea that people should go to financial therapy when they have issues with money, or a coach when you have issues with money.

00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:54.800
You can have money and have issues with money.

00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:56.800
And people like that.

00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:57.760
Right.

00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:01.039
That is to a degree my mother.

00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:03.840
She has plenty of money but has a hard time spending it.

00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:04.400
Right.

00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:06.320
And that's hard for people too.

00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:14.239
And and I talked about a little piece about this after running into a friend's dad who was preparing for um retirement.

00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:23.920
And he's like, Asia, you mean that I've been working for 30, 35 years, squirreling away this money, saving it, investing it, building this beautiful nesting.

00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:28.000
And now I'm just supposed to stop adding to it and now I'm supposed to spend it.

00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:31.760
He could not wrap his head around this.

00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:35.920
And I'm like, yeah, this is what you've spent your whole life working towards.

00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:37.039
It's your moment.

00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:38.400
Let's enjoy it.

00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:43.199
So you have to learn to, yes, save your money, invest your money, but you also need to learn to spend it.

00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:45.920
And that can also be very difficult for people.

00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:46.480
Yes.

00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:47.760
It becomes an identity.

00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:49.199
It becomes their identity.

00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:59.119
And so it's so hard for them to change because honestly, I think so, like with our parents' generation, I don't think they actually thought through what they wanted their retirement to look like.

00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:06.079
It was this big goal that everybody talked about that you saved to get to, but they never actually thought, like, hey, what do I actually want to do when I get there?

00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:07.599
What do what do I want that to look like?

00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:08.400
Yeah.

00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:09.199
Yeah.

00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:12.159
Where I feel like we are all like, I can't wait to get there.

00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:14.480
I've got a crystal clear plan.

00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:15.679
Crystal clear.

00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:18.880
Listen, I know where I want to be Tuesday at 10 a.m.

00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:20.960
Um, it's so true.

00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:22.639
I love that you're calling out.

00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:27.760
You can have plenty of money and still have blockers and still have issues.

00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:31.679
It's not a I only see broke people, right?

00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:33.599
Or I only see people who have debt.

00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:35.599
So I think that was a great call out.

00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:36.320
Thank you.

00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:45.679
Um, if somebody's thinking about working with you or work, you know, working with somebody like you, what um can you walk us through maybe the first couple of sessions?

00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:46.800
What would it look like?

00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:48.159
What does it sound like?

00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:48.880
Yeah.

00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:52.400
So, first, with any kind of therapist, this is going to be important.

00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:54.400
Like you have to get the right person, right?

00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:56.400
You have to get the right fit for you.

00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:00.559
And that would be anybody you're working with, even a doctor, a CFP, anybody.

00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:02.079
You want the right fit.

00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.599
So I have a very particular personality.

00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.000
I have a very particular vibe.

00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:13.840
And it's not the vibe for everybody, but I want to make sure that you find who works for you, right?

00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:15.760
So that's going to be the first thing.

00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:22.480
So when you're finding them, you know, poke around, look at their stuff to get see what's going on and see if it jives a little bit for you.

00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:27.519
And then once you have your consultation, you dive in, you're meeting for the first time.

00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:32.559
For me, I want two things to happen during our first few sessions.

00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:39.920
Either you have been waiting for this appointment and you've got burning things that you feel like you need to get off your chest.

00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:42.239
I want you to just word vomit them to me.

00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:43.119
And that's okay for me.

00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.039
People like, I'm sorry, I'm all over the place.

00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:46.000
Do not worry about it.

00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:46.719
I can keep up.

00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.280
If I can't, I will ask you to clarify.

00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.519
Um, but get it off your chest because that's also part of what we're doing too.

00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:55.840
Like, you don't need to hold this by yourself.

00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:58.880
I'm here to also support you and hold it as well.

00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:01.119
And for some people, that's very easy.

00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:03.519
For other people, it can be very hard, and that's okay.

00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:06.880
I also don't mind asking questions about your life.

00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:13.119
And that's where I'm really also starting the process, too, of hey, what was your first money memory?

00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:15.519
What did growing up look like with money?

00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:16.880
What does money look like right now?

00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:18.239
How are you feeling about it?

00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:27.679
Like, walk me through and download almost like your money autobiography to me from as early as you remember to right now.

00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:29.440
Like, walk me through your whole life.

00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:47.679
And what I'm doing during that time is trying to pull out patterns of how you either think about money, what your money beliefs might be, narratives that you continuously tell yourself, and then figure out if those narratives are now playing a part and impacting your money either in a healthy, positive way or in a way that you don't like where you're at right now.

00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:53.840
Do you talk about the goals from a monetary standpoint?

00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:58.639
Like this is, I want to get rid of this debt and I want to save and invest this much by this time.

00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:02.159
And then you actually go into the numbers and start processing that way.

00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.960
Or is it more um the feelings around money?

00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:11.760
I want to feel, you know, safe, secure, able to spend, whatever that might be.

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:17.679
Can you talk us through how you actually so it's um it's a little bit of both, I would say.

00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:26.800
And I think for some people who are really smart and like to intellectualize their emotions, it's very easy to come in hot and heavy with numbers.

00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:31.119
Um, they feel confident in the numbers, they've looked at the numbers, they know the numbers by heart.

00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:32.559
Asia, you look at the numbers.

00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.840
I'm like, I'll look at the numbers, but this is not a numbers issue.

00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:44.159
Um so I want to know about goals, but first I kind of do need to know like where is the issue, right?

00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:55.360
Um, and that's the harder part about therapy is to identify what the issue is, identify what the maladaptive patterns are, or um, identify what you want.

00:41:55.519 --> 00:42:00.960
You would be so shocked how many people really struggle to name what they want.

00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:03.360
And I will ask eventually, like it's not the first session.

00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:04.639
I'm not surprised at all.

00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:05.199
Yeah.

00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:05.679
Right?

00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:06.719
See, this is it.

00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:11.280
When you start working with people, I'm like, people really don't know what they want.

00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:12.559
I'm like, well, what do you want?

00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:14.000
And they're like, oh my God.

00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:16.960
And then the tears come, they're uncomfortable.

00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:18.880
I'm like, oh no, I'm so sorry.

00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:21.519
But like, this is where we got to get to first.

00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:38.159
I think it's so hard because we're inundated with so many things on a daily basis that a lot of people haven't just taken time to think about one by themselves, what they want, what their goals, how they want their life to look in the future, or you know, between a couple, like, what do we want our life to look like?

00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:44.800
I mean, I can tell you time after time, majority of people I sit down with when we're talking about becoming work optional.

00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:46.960
Um, well, it's like, what do you want that to look like?

00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:48.320
They're like, I have no idea.

00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:59.760
I'm like, so we're going to work right now, you know, 40 plus hours a week, and you have no idea, you know, working towards quote unquote this goal of being not able to work, and you have no idea what you're gonna do once you reach that goal.

00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:00.719
Yeah.

00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:02.719
And that's really hard for people.

00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:04.880
So we do get there eventually.

00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:07.039
Um, what what do you want?

00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:13.760
How to, especially when we're starting to talk about budgets, because I do look at my numbers with my clients and look at their numbers if they want me to.

00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:17.199
Um, so sometimes it's like, hey, Asia, I've been avoiding my account.

00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:19.199
I'm like, okay, let's pull it up together right now.

00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:22.079
Like, pull it up, get the phone out, get whatever you're gonna use.

00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:23.039
Let's do it right now.

00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.800
And I'll take notes and be like, okay, this is how much you're telling me is in your account.

00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.679
This is how much money you're telling me is that you owe.

00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:30.800
Do you know?

00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:37.599
Um, and getting what I call financially naked, like really looking at all of the numbers.

00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:38.559
What's your income?

00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:40.320
What's your debt look like?

00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:41.679
Loans, retirement.

00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:46.320
And now let's start talking about your goals and let's talk about building your budget if you need one.

00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:51.760
Um, and then it's kind of interspersing hey, emotionally, this is what's coming up for me.

00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.800
I'm uncomfortable.

00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:53.840
This is hard for me.

00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.119
I'm avoiding it.

00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:57.920
And I'll say, and they my clients know me at this point.

00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:01.599
We have a good rapport, and I'm a little spiced and like, you do know you're avoiding this, right?

00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:03.440
And they're like, I know, Asia, I know.

00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:06.159
Like, and this is therapy, so I'm gonna tell you.

00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:07.920
Numbers are the easiest part.

00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:12.320
Like, people always people always say to me, like, you know, oh, you're a financial planner, you must be good with numbers.

00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:14.960
I'm good with numbers, but that's not the bulk of what I do.

00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:16.079
That is the easy part.

00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:19.360
If it was just simply numbers, yeah, my job would be a breeze.

00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:20.800
Yeah, it's people.

00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:37.760
People are hard and we're complex and we want to believe that we're not nearly as emotional as we are, but we are, and it is very vulnerable and hard to start opening that part of yourself up to somebody else, to be like, I actually don't know what I want.

00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:40.559
I've been putting one foot in front of the other and I don't know what I want.

00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:42.400
And why?

00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:44.400
Like, why don't I know?

00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:54.079
I think, I think, especially for people that, you know, maybe are, you know, quote unquote smarter, have higher, you know, education, more degrees, stuff like that.

00:44:54.159 --> 00:45:02.719
It's harder for them to just simply say, I don't know something, because I feel like it's still in our society frowned upon to not know stuff when there's so much information out there.

00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:04.000
There's no way you can know it all.

00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:07.760
And then also, especially when it comes to the finance aspect, we're not taught this.

00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:10.320
Like you could be a doctor, you could be an attorney.

00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:13.599
In all those years of schooling, nothing was around finances.

00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:14.719
Right.

00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:15.199
Yeah.

00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:19.440
And if you weren't taught at home, I mean, it comes up a lot on our calls with guests.

00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:23.519
Like, yeah, most people were taught save your money, don't spend more than you have.

00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:26.079
And then that's kind of where it stops, you know?

00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:39.920
So, how are we supposed to navigate life in our 20s and not make these pretty big financial decisions, in many cases, mistakes, and then come out on the other side when we didn't have any guidance, we didn't have any knowledge, you know?

00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:44.320
So it we all have our own stories of having to learn the hard way.

00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:52.960
And so, you know, eliminating or working through that shame and guilt that really came from a place in a space where we weren't taught.

00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:54.960
And how, how were we supposed to know?

00:45:55.039 --> 00:46:00.000
And how should we have navigated it better when we didn't have anybody to hold our hand through it?

00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:11.920
So it's so nice that we have resources like you, people like you who are now combining finance and therapy because we need it.

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:13.360
You know, people need it.

00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:18.960
They need to have those breakthroughs, those awakenings like you had, where it's I don't have to stay stuck.

00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:21.280
I don't have to be in this place.

00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.000
And more importantly, I don't have to do it alone.

00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:25.920
I don't have to figure it out alone.

00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:37.360
There are people and resources and books and uh, you know, big online communities now where you can have your hand held, find the support and get the one-on-one attention that people need.

00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:39.280
So this is so wonderful.

00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:40.480
Yeah.

00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:41.920
And just ask, right?

00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:48.239
Like I think to your point, like it's hard to say, I don't know, but it's also hard to ask for help.

00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:56.000
And I want people to know that they don't have to just be suffering in silence, torturing themselves because they feel like they should have known.

00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:57.119
Okay, you should have.

00:46:58.400 --> 00:46:58.719
Okay, hang on.

00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:02.239
You don't get any extra points for doing it by yourself.

00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:03.440
No, no.

00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:06.239
It just often takes longer and it's harder.

00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:07.840
For no reason.

00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:08.480
We're here.

00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:09.199
Yeah.

00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.280
Asia, where can people find you?

00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:12.800
Where can they buy your book?

00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:20.159
Um, and if today's conversation resonated and they like the vibe, um, where can they potentially reach out?

00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:23.280
I'm assuming you take, you know, clients from all over.

00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:23.920
Yes.

00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:26.079
So I have a few client slots left.

00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:27.599
I'll be honest, it's now ten.

00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:30.320
Um, but I do have a few left.

00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:39.199
But you can find me on IG at Asiaetherapy, AJ A E Therapy, um, or at my website, AsiaEvansCounseling.com.

00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:45.440
Um, and you can always shoot me uh email at helloasiaevanscounseling.com as well.

00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:46.079
So I'm here.

00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:47.920
You can get my book wherever books are sold.

00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:51.360
I'm always gonna support local bookshops because I want them to stay in business.

00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:53.360
I think they're very important for our communities.

00:47:53.519 --> 00:48:00.079
So um shop local if you can, but it is also at the bigger box stores if that feels easier and more accessible to you.

00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:00.719
Perfect.

00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:02.320
Well, we will link everything.

00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:07.519
Find Feel Good Finance at your local community bookstore, maybe even your library.

00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:09.920
We need to support the libraries as well.

00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:12.480
Love a good library stop on a Sunday.

00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:24.159
Um, Asia, thank you for being with us and for sharing your story and your insights and for hopefully, you know, continuing to open up the conversation about financial therapy and that you don't have to go at it alone.

00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:26.320
So thank you for being with us today.

00:48:27.039 --> 00:48:29.119
Absolutely, thank you for having me.

00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:35.119
Don't forget, Benjamin Franklin said, an investment in knowledge pays the best interest.

00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:36.639
You just got paid.

00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:37.679
Until next time.

00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:39.599
Sugar Daddy Podcast go.

00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:42.320
Learn how to make the pockets grow.

00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:44.960
Find new freedom, five week flow.

00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:47.119
Smart investments, money flow.

00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:49.679
Thanks for listening to today's episode.

00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:52.639
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00:48:52.800 --> 00:49:00.880
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00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:05.199
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00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:16.400
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00:49:16.719 --> 00:49:19.280
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00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:22.639
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