Nov. 19, 2025

115: Five Money Mistakes That Break Couples and How to Avoid Them

115: Five Money Mistakes That Break Couples and How to Avoid Them
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Season 4

Most couples don’t break up because of infidelity — they break up over money.
And worse? They never saw it coming.

In this episode, we’re breaking down the 5 biggest money mistakes that silently sabotage relationships… and how to actually fix them.

We’re joined by Heather and Douglas Bonaparth, the real-life couple behind the new book Money Together: How to Find Fairness in Your Relationship and Become an Unstoppable Financial Team. From navigating breadwinner role shifts, to recovering from resentment, to building a shared financial practice — they’ve lived it and now teach it.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

  • Why your childhood money stories matter more than you think
  • The biggest mistake couples make with “fairness”
  • What to do when one partner earns more (and tension builds)
  • How to protect your relationship as life seasons change
  • The money practice every couple needs — no spreadsheet required

Whether you’re dating, married, or running a business together, these insights will help you build a healthier relationship with both money and each other.

Connect with Heather on IG 

Connect with Doug on IG 

Buy Money Together 

Subscribe to the Joint Account Newsletter 

Head over to our YouTube channel to catch this episode in full video form.

Apply to be a guest on the show.

You can also email us at: thesugardaddypodcast@gmail.com

Connect with us on Instagram
We’re most active over at @thesugardaddypodcast

Chat with Brandon
Want to work together? Learn more about Brandon

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Money, relationships, and the mindset to master both. Hosted by financial advisor Brandon and his wife Jessica, The Sugar Daddy Podcast breaks down how to build wealth, unpack old money beliefs, and have real conversations about love and finances. Our mission? To help couples and individuals grow rich in every sense of the word: emotionally, relationally and financially.

Chapters

00:00 - Growth Requires Discomfort

00:42 - Double Date With Money Nerds

02:36 - Meet Heather And Douglas

05:10 - First Money Memories Diverge

12:26 - Opposites, Baggage, And Abundance

16:58 - Growing Up Together Isn’t Linear

22:30 - Law School, Recession, And Shame

29:06 - Millennials And Changing Rules

33:16 - Breadwinner Dynamics And Motherhood

40:12 - Resentment, Ambition, And The Pivot

46:11 - Why Write Money Together

50:05 - Fairness, Time, And Equity At Home

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:08.240
If you want to experience growth in any part of your life, whether it's your physique or your relationship with your partner, guess what you gotta do?

00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:10.960
You gotta get uncomfortable.

00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:24.960
And that's the thing that you can rely on being consistent if you want to get through seasons of life, whether your puppy dogs in love in college or you're navigating parenthood or retirement later on, whatever it may be.

00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:28.239
Um, how uncomfortable are you willing to get with your partner?

00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:30.320
Sugar teddy podcast go.

00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:33.119
Learn how to make them pockets grow.

00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:35.439
Finance for freedom, swear we go.

00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:38.000
Smart investments, money flow.

00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:40.719
Hey, babe.

00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:42.320
What are we talking about today?

00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.520
Today we are going on a double date.

00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:55.920
And I'm so excited because if you have been listening, you know Brandon and I are the weird ones, and all we do is talk about relationships and money.

00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:57.039
And guess what?

00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:01.039
We found another couple who likes talking about relationships and money.

00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:02.560
And so we said, you know what?

00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:04.079
Let's make it a double date.

00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:09.280
And it just so happens that they wrote a fabulous new book called Money Together.

00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.560
They beat us to it, which I'm not very competitive.

00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:17.439
We're we are here to celebrate them and their book launch of Money Together.

00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:19.439
And that's what we're going to be talking about today.

00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:24.319
So, Heather and Douglas Bonaparte, welcome to the Sugar Daddy Podcast.

00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:26.640
Thank you so much for having us.

00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.879
And I'm pretty sure that we will know by the end of this that we are the weird ones.

00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:33.359
Listen, we are Challenge accepted.

00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:34.799
Accepted, guys.

00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:44.400
We are here to be weird together and to normalize the conversations around money in partnership because we know it's still very taboo.

00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:47.599
We know it's still one of the leading causes of divorce.

00:01:47.760 --> 00:02:02.079
And so resources like money together are there to help guide people to make it less weird, to make it less taboo, and to really bring it into everyday conversation because that's really what you need.

00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:03.599
It's not a one-time thing.

00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:11.840
It really is an ongoing, maybe not, maybe it doesn't have to be daily, because that sounds stressful, but an ongoing conversation in people's relationships.

00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:13.680
So we're excited to get into this today.

00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:15.840
Let's go there.

00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:24.319
I love too that the subtitle of the book is How to Find Fairness in Your Relationship and Become an Unstoppable Financial Team.

00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:29.680
And I love the word fair because we know equal is not a thing in relationships.

00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:35.520
And Eve Rodsky, who is on the back of your book, I'm pretty sure, we've had her on as well.

00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:41.360
And so we know all about fairness and equity and how hard it is to achieve.

00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:43.439
So we're so excited to get into this.

00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:52.960
We're gonna get into your bios because even though this is about money together, you are individuals and you have your own stories that you're now merging.

00:02:53.039 --> 00:03:00.080
And so we want to make sure that everybody understands who you are and what you've done and how this has all come together.

00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:01.520
So let's get into it.

00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:07.599
Douglas Bonaparte is the founder of Bona Fide Wealth, a wealth management firm in New York City.

00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:16.639
Recognized as one of the nation's most influential financial advisors, Douglas serves on the advisory councils for CNBC and Investopedia.

00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:20.639
He has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and more.

00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:26.560
He is also a CFP board ambassador board ambassador for New York.

00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:32.319
When he's not making jokes on the internet, he enjoys brewing coffee, though he can do both at the same time.

00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:33.280
I love that.

00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:38.400
Heather Bonaparte is used to wearing many hats, as most women do.

00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:43.360
On her first maternity leave, because there's apparently nothing else to do on maternity leave.

00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:48.560
Um, she co-authored the couple's first book on helping millennials achieve financial freedom.

00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:54.479
I mean, could you not have just sat on the couch and like rested with just a beam spit on your shoulder or something?

00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:57.439
No, when you look back, none of it makes sense.

00:03:57.759 --> 00:03:58.319
Jessica.

00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:02.560
One point on the weird, on the weird, uh scale right there.

00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:03.039
Check.

00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:03.520
Okay.

00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:08.639
Since then, she has become a rising voice at the intersection of love, money, and family.

00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:14.400
She has written for CNBC, The Skim, Insider, Scary Mommy, and more.

00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:25.199
A lawyer by trade, she spent more than a decade in the insurance industry before joining the family business as Bona Fide Wealth's director of business and legal affairs.

00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.480
They met in college and consider themselves gators for life.

00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:30.160
That's for Heather and Douglas.

00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.800
And they live in New Jersey with their two daughters.

00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:36.079
So, whoo, y'all been busy.

00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:37.439
It's a lot going on.

00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:41.040
It's a little when when when vacation.

00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:42.800
Yeah, when are we going on vacation?

00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:44.399
I mean, come come with us.

00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:45.120
Come with us.

00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:46.319
We'll be gone next week.

00:04:47.040 --> 00:05:03.279
Um, we're so excited to get into this because I think there's so much, even in those bios, that is going to, I know, go into the story of money together and the fact that you are working in this business now together, but had very separate lives before.

00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:10.319
But before we can do all of that, we need to hear about your money memories and then we're gonna let the conversation flow.

00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:11.759
So I'm gonna do ladies first.

00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:15.360
So, Heather, what is your first money memory?

00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:43.680
Well, if you want to know something interesting, even though we asked this question to every couple that we interviewed for our book, there was a memory that I unlocked in the process of writing this book and reading and reading it and editing it that I realized had a much more profound impact on my view of money and the world than what I had originally considered my first money uh memory to be.

00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:59.120
And um I was in a car with my father's parents and my grandfather, my late grandfather, when I was about seven or eight years old, maybe eight or nine.

00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:17.680
And um I we saw a a homeless person on the street, and I wanted to stop the car and give them money and food, and he screamed at me.

00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:44.480
And we had it was we had got into a big fight about what generosity means and personal responsibility means, and it was so um jarring for me as a young child with a generous heart and with a belief about people and and things and how you find yourself in different lots in life.

00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:58.480
And it just was the it was the perfect illustration of how differently I viewed the world, and I always viewed the world than my late grandfather, who um had very different views than me.

00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:09.199
And um those views, those diametrically opposite views in our family, um were a real source of internal conflict for me as I got older.

00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:14.560
So it's one of those things where we look back and my mom remembers it, and my dad remembers it too.

00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:17.759
They're no longer married, but at the time they were, and they remember it.

00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:25.120
They're like, oh yeah, we remember that day and how pop pop screamed at you, he pulled the car over, and you were devastated.

00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:28.399
And so it's sorry to start us off on such a heavy note.

00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:29.040
Dang, yeah.

00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:31.439
No, that's my first money memory.

00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:38.720
And and and you read in our book about all of my issues and baggage with money and where they come from.

00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:39.920
Yeah.

00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:41.040
Here's the start.

00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:42.959
Start starting point A.

00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:43.360
Yeah.

00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:49.279
But though that's so um well, it's devastating, I think.

00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:52.639
And clearly it has stuck with you.

00:07:53.040 --> 00:08:06.399
And I think in families when you have such opposite views on life and generosity and love and giving and all those things and empathy, I mean, that's when you're like, you know what?

00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:08.639
This is why people build their chosen family.

00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:10.959
And that's you know, that's right.

00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:20.399
And and you know what's interesting to this day, when we unpack what our values are, Doug and I still are both, we are both generous people, we're both philanthropic people.

00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:32.639
But the way that I feel about giving and giving as an obligation as part of a tenant of what I believe and who I am and my values, and like what I look at are the purpose of having wealth is, and about right?

00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:35.120
Like how how important is that to me?

00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:40.559
And I realized like I I I did not connect that until very recently.

00:08:40.720 --> 00:08:44.159
That like this maybe this is why this is so important to me.

00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:45.519
Yeah, absolutely.

00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:47.919
That's I mean, now it's at your core, right?

00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:49.039
At the core of your being.

00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:50.639
Thank you for sharing that.

00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:53.279
Douglas with the good hair.

00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:56.480
I mean, my good hair.

00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:57.600
I'm jealous, so you know.

00:08:57.759 --> 00:08:59.360
Yeah, over here got baldy.

00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.799
So I also I put it quick side note.

00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:05.039
The funniest part is that we actually found you guys separately.

00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:12.879
So like I've been following uh Douglas for a while on the financial advising side, and I even remember when like your logo was like the outline of your head.

00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:14.159
It was so good.

00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:15.039
As it should be.

00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:17.600
That's not that's not narcissistic or anything.

00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:19.759
If you got it, fly.

00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:21.759
That's right.

00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:22.159
That's right.

00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.000
All right, Douglas, what is your uh what is your first money memory?

00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.919
Yeah, so I, you know, uh, you know, stark contrast to Heather here.

00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.879
I I grew up the son of serial entrepreneurs.

00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:38.240
You know, my my grandfather and my father uh were in business together, business separately.

00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:47.679
Um, you know, we were always encouraged uh to be fascinated by money, not just because it's money, but because what it could do for you, right?

00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:49.679
There were a lot of qualities around it.

00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:57.360
This notion that if you bet on yourself and were resourceful enough that you could produce money, you could make things happen, right?

00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:04.399
Like my grandpa Shapp was a mover and a shaker, you know, he was always you know networking and and bopping around and making stuff happen here.

00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:10.960
And I'd learn a lot later on like what that meant for growing businesses and enterprise and things like management.

00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:17.039
So from a very early age, you know, my brother and I were fixing computers and making little businesses.

00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:23.279
And these little businesses meant we never had to work, you know, um, at too many, you know, places our friends were working at.

00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:24.559
We were capable of doing it ourselves.

00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:31.200
So we got a lot of lessons there, um, just in, you know, again, investing in yourself and and being able to produce.

00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:34.960
Um, that's served me quite well, you know, throughout throughout life.

00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.559
Um, and that I probably could never work for somebody.

00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:40.559
Um, is I guess the downstroke to that.

00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:53.200
Yeah, Heather, who's been in in all We would joke so much, like in my my like decade plus as a corporate early, corporate we always joked about Doug having like what what do you call it, like CEO mentality.

00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:56.000
Just walk in there and tell them what you want.

00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:00.960
I don't care what level in the organization you want, from mailroom to you know SVP.

00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:02.480
You just gotta mentality.

00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:05.679
I'm like, you've never worked for anyone, right?

00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:07.919
There's so many politics, it doesn't work like that.

00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.000
This will this will get you fired very fast.

00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:11.840
I hope no one's taking this advice.

00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:13.600
And that's kind of the joke here.

00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:16.879
And we also joked about, you know, I'd be fired very quickly.

00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:24.799
Like I did not really understand why you couldn't go above your boss if they were like doing something that was just operationally inefficient.

00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:26.480
Yeah, that'll kind of get you in trouble.

00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.879
So for so for me, I had a really, a really good foundation.

00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:34.240
You know, it's it's not all uh rose-colored glasses.

00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:41.679
There are moments that I look back on where I remember my grandfather pointing his finger at me uh as my dad and him were having a conversation.

00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.639
And he said, This one over here doesn't know the value of a dollar.

00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:48.000
And I'm like, I didn't really know what it meant at the time, but I knew it was bad.

00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:54.159
And I knew I didn't want to be, you know, that looking up for my Game Boy, like, you know, what'd you say?

00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:56.000
Like, why, why is this a bad thing?

00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:00.799
But it it kind of folded back into this curiosity I have about just building business.

00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:03.200
And I also had an older brother that was into it too.

00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:17.919
So him and I got to kind of workshop ideas, and I give I give my older brother David a ton of credit for for being the one to actually take a lot of leaps and and go out there and be entrepreneurial and as his kid brother, you know, bring it up the rear and inherit a lot of the work that he did.

00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:20.480
Um so thanks to thanks to all of them for that.

00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:21.039
Yeah.

00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:22.399
Those are great stories.

00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:26.399
I I love kind of the how separate they are.

00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:37.600
We always find that when people tell us their first money memory and now they're in a partnership, most of the time people did not grow up the same way with money.

00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:38.559
Absolutely.

00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:48.000
Even if they grew up, you know, in similar socioeconomic statuses or levels, you know, if they are both college educated, like it doesn't really matter.

00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:54.480
It's that most people that come together and get married grew up very different when it comes to money.

00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:56.000
Is that your experience as well?

00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:58.559
Like, would you say you guys grew up very differently?

00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:00.080
Yes, yes.

00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:02.559
Um, socioeconomically, no.

00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:09.039
But yes, in the sense that my parents actually, so I'm an only child and grandchild on both sides of my family.

00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:15.919
I which is, I think, um, I think that plays into a lot of the money uh baggage that I carried into adulthood.

00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:19.200
Um, because my parents got divorced when I was 13.

00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:33.039
And so, like I said, like I was growing up in a situation where I've got basically now two families with two very, very different approaches to money, two very, very different views of things like generosity, identity, values.

00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:37.600
Um, you know, and and I was kind of put in the middle of those two things.

00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:46.399
And I lived with my mother, who was very afraid, and she was a stay-at-home mom for many, many years and had to go reinvent herself and find her career.

00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.240
But it was like this scarcity moment in the day-to-day of my life.

00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:55.440
And then I have my father's family where money was like, money is a means of of control.

00:13:55.600 --> 00:14:02.399
It's about buying loyalty, it's about being like very exacting with your wealth, and about like it's it's the opposite.

00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:13.840
Um, and and I think when Doug and I found ourselves together, like he's coming from the standpoint of stability and like you can bet on yourself and you can make things happen.

00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:15.279
And abundance mentality.

00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:24.080
And I was just so incredibly emotional about money because I really just didn't know what to believe coming into adulthood.

00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:32.799
Um, and and so I feel it got very much intermixed with the personal relationships that you had with, you know, people in your life.

00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:37.360
And those blurry lines created all kinds of things that you would have to navigate through.

00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:52.000
And to withhold money was to show that you disapprove or that they are are not enough.

00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:52.240
Yeah.

00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:58.799
Because the money was there and the choice to not share it with you was a statement about your lack of something.

00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:00.879
And that was always put on me.

00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:11.600
So imagine going into a relationship where you're kind of like even your family is kind of putting you to the test as to where your loyalties are and who to trust and things like that.

00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:12.879
It was really difficult.

00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:14.320
I feel bad for it.

00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.879
It seems like you came out on the other side and learned a lot in the process, though.

00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:20.799
I mean, luckily I'm built for it.

00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:31.120
You know, I think in many cases, whether that's luck or just a lot of the reasons that Heather and I work, despite being almost opposites in every possible category you can imagine.

00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:42.320
But the expression goes, opposites attract because you're you're filling in, you know, pieces of your partner that maybe they're not coming up well in, you know, their shortcomings here.

00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:46.960
So And that's the beauty of the idea when you look at money and trying to do money with somebody else.

00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:48.879
It's like it is yours, mine, and ours.

00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:55.840
Like, even though I carry a lot of baggage, I also carry a lot of wisdom and a lot of perspective from the experiences I had in my life.

00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:59.519
I don't lose all of those just because there were some bad things that happened too.

00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:05.279
I was able to help Heather navigate that component, not just with words, but with actions.

00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:06.799
And we talk about that in the book.

00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:08.799
But Heather back over to me too.

00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:12.080
My parents ended up getting divorced, you know, six years ago as an adult.

00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:21.039
And she said, Hey, I went through this, you know, at a very tender moment in my life, arguably brutal timing for Heather relative to me.

00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:22.399
It all stinks.

00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:30.000
But she was very good at saying, here's what I've learned here, and here's what you can take to help navigate this for yourself.

00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:43.200
So again, you know, being opposites is great, but when it comes to money and your partner, it's not a bad thing that you have different stories and different upbringings, culture, religion, whatever it may be that has created your own money story.

00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:46.320
Yes, I think nine out of 10 times you'll find that you are different.

00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:51.200
But in those differences is the opportunity to connect, which is what this book is about, right?

00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:52.159
How do you connect?

00:16:52.399 --> 00:17:00.240
How do you reconcile these differences so you can have that chosen family with its own chosen values to move forward in life?

00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:04.720
And that's the work that we want people to do because it leads to happiness.

00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:05.440
Yeah.

00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:12.880
There's so many things that you've already said that are very uh similar to us because Brandon's parents got divorced when he was five.

00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:15.839
My parents got divorced when I was 28.

00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:17.359
So after 35 years of marriage.

00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:18.960
Yeah, right, when we first started dating.

00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:21.200
So I had to like unpack a lot of that.

00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:29.519
Um, because obviously your your view of divorce when you're five is very different than when you're a grown adult with a whole life, you know?

00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:30.319
Yeah.

00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:34.400
Um, and I mean, we take those into our relationship.

00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:50.319
So I went to a lot of therapy after that for a variety of reasons, but I do think that's uh partially and or maybe in in large part to the success of our relationship is like I worked all that out before bringing it into this set.

00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:53.839
I think there's also a difference, like you said that you guys had met in college.

00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.640
So ironically, we actually went to the same college.

00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:58.640
However, we didn't know each other in college.

00:17:58.799 --> 00:17:59.920
So we didn't start dating.

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.720
I was 30 years old and 28 when we started dating, actually.

00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:18.720
So that makes a big dynamic, you know, difference in regards to we kind of had already become quote unquote adults and already lived certain aspects of our life separately as compared to obviously you guys, you know, went from like essentially, you know, children to uh two adults together.

00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:31.200
We we we grew up together is the best way I I put it, and that we really uh were able to have a um a front row seat uh to working through some of these challenges.

00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:48.960
And I I I say this all the time that I, you know, it's not that he shaped the outcomes, it's not that he um he did help in many ways, but I think that it's important in our lives for the perspective that he's gained because I think that does give us a leg up in many ways.

00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.359
That's what people have a hard time talking about.

00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:55.599
We know the facts about our partners, but do you really know the stories?

00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:57.759
Do you know how it made people feel?

00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.720
Do you know the impact it might have on their life today?

00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:07.680
Unless you're having these deeper conversations, you might not understand why your partner behaves a certain way today.

00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:12.480
So, like the fact that it's it is a bit a bit of a cheat code that we've known each other so long.

00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:22.240
But to be clear, it wasn't sunshine and rainbows, like going from children to adults, like there were more, there was more than one occasion where it was all out on the line and we almost did not survive.

00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.799
So, like, I I try and make that point clear.

00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.400
This is not some college sweethearts and it was all sunshine and rainbows.

00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.599
We worked really hard to become adults and start our adult lives together.

00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:33.119
Two things can be true.

00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:50.000
You know, you can have an advantage by understanding and having perspective of one another from those earlier years that you bring into your adult years and struggle and find yourself in positions that you have to work hard on to prove your relationship to be durable for the long term.

00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:52.880
So um, I like the way Heather said that a lot.

00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:54.720
And, you know, thanks.

00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:56.559
But we talk a lot, yeah.

00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:05.519
But we also talk a lot about, you know, just when you think you figure it out, you know, there's been moments in our in our journey together where we thought we had it all licked, right?

00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:07.200
We cool, had a kid, bought a house.

00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:07.680
We did it.

00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:10.319
I mean, it life's not linear like that.

00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.720
You go through these seasons of life and find that there are challenges ahead of you.

00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:15.920
Um, and we did.

00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:20.480
And that's ultimately what brought us to what we're doing right now and the work that we have.

00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.920
We we thought we had it figured out, and then uh we didn't.

00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:34.160
And we had to find ourselves back to center, writing a book, working together, and you know, never leaving each other's side 24 hours a week, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:34.640
I don't know.

00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:36.559
There's there's there's a lot to it, right?

00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:45.680
But um, it's it's through that journey and it's through experiencing that kind of growth that you're able to get through these seasons and start out on a new one.

00:20:46.240 --> 00:21:09.039
Yeah, I've I'm always amazed by people who met at such a young age and you know had to go through all those different periods of, you know, figuring out who you are as an individual, figuring out who you are as a couple and growing up together, because I think it's significantly easier to come together as, you know, quote unquote full-grown adults where you already know who you are, rather than like, because sometimes you see people that are together and they just end up growing apart.

00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.200
It's not a matter of anything either one of them did.

00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:13.759
It's just a matter of that's just how they evolved as people.

00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:23.839
There were times in those years, in especially in those early years, where it was incredibly I it I I wish I was clearer at the time.

00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.559
I did not, I made a ton of mistakes in our early 20s.

00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:31.039
And he stayed in Florida and I moved to New York um to go to law school.

00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:44.720
And I don't know if I don't know if what our whether we would have survived had we not given each other the space that we needed to grow up a little bit.

00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:47.759
Because we weren't at the same place at the same time.

00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:55.519
We weren't in lockstep, we weren't in agreement about how we wanted our adult lives to play out, where we wanted them to play out, what we were going to do.

00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:08.000
Um, I that you know, we definitely had to grow up as individuals and then figure out several years later, hey, this is the real deal, this is for the long term.

00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:10.720
We want to start our adult lives together and we're gonna do that.

00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.400
I think that's an important, I guess I'm with you 100%.

00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:19.039
And I think some people are lying to themselves when they don't, when they don't admit that.

00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:25.359
Well, I think human beings in general would like to avoid discomfort almost at all costs.

00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:30.160
We live in a world where obtaining comfort is easier than ever before, right?

00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:35.440
We don't have to do a whole history lesson, understand you don't have to go too far back in time to find out how miserable life could be.

00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:35.680
Right.

00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:37.759
Uh and we live in a very comfortable environment.

00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:47.759
The point I'm trying to make here is that if you want to experience growth in any part of your life, whether it's your physique or your relationship with your partner, guess what you gotta do?

00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.559
You gotta get uncomfortable.

00:22:50.880 --> 00:23:05.519
And that will happen, that's the thing that you can rely on being consistent if you want to get through seasons of life, whether you're puppy dogs in love in college or you're navigating parenthood or retirement later on, whatever it may be.

00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:08.960
Um, how how uncomfortable are you willing to get with your partner?

00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:23.680
Um, hopefully you don't take it to a point where the wheels are about to come off and you get good at this, but I think that is just such a critical point as you're doing this type of work or any type of work that is about self-care or growth or just improvement.

00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:25.039
Yeah, that's a great call out.

00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:43.119
I have one question for Heather because um I did I did a year of law school and I distinctly remember after, you know, doing my one L year, I was like, this is not for me, but I distinctly remember um at the beginning when they were giving orientation that they said, if you are in a relationship right now with someone who's not also in law school, good luck.

00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:45.119
Did they give you that talk?

00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.240
No one gave me that talk, but it is true.

00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:50.640
I distinctly remember that.

00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:57.119
Doug, it it was by far the worst time for the two of us.

00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.200
By far the worst time.

00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:05.759
Um and and when I say like we really like we really almost didn't make it.

00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:18.480
Everyone I know that went in in a relationship, they either like took a break, broke up, it didn't work out, and then they all and and the few that figured it out figured it out like long after the dust had settled from graduation.

00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:26.559
Like it was truly the most pressure cooker, um insular experience.

00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:29.279
I also was in law school during the Great Recession.

00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:37.279
So like there was no like there, like any like positive, any positive vibes were gone.

00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:38.640
Like there was no abundance.

00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:44.400
It was like a true like cage match for like the three jobs that were going to be available to anyone.

00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.720
It was it was yeah, toxic.

00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.279
And I don't, and I don't use that word lightly.

00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:58.400
Like my experience in law school, like I'll give, I'll tell you, like, and I I had someone de-tag my law school in a post with my name in it.

00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:03.359
Like, and I and I I, you know, that's how I that's when I look back and I'm like, man.

00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:14.240
I think I think what was happening in the world at the time of what's happening in your life in Heather's case is just one of those compound fractures that make it that much more difficult to recover from.

00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:27.359
And I feel a lot of folks in our generation who started out their lives in 2008 and nine and ten as someone who primarily works with these folks uh in bit yeah, as as clients, um, you see the scar tissue, right?

00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:36.559
Um there was there was a lot of shame to go around, not just for me, for a lot of people I was in school with, because we've we made the decision to attend.

00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.200
And I went to law school in New York City, an expensive law school.

00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:42.799
I took out student loans, six figures to attend that law school.

00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.279
And it was not a willy-nill nilly decision.

00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:48.720
I sat there in the financial aid office, I looked at the employment charts.

00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:56.160
It was a bet that was calculated, it made sense, it was an investment in myself, and then it went belly up while I was there.

00:25:57.279 --> 00:25:59.200
They changed the rules of the game in the middle of the game.

00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:11.599
And I don't I don't say that to place blame, but so that people understand the kind of shame that sets in and you experience causes you to do all sorts of crazy things.

00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:18.480
Like, and and it it took like and and your decision-making ability is so clouded.

00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.799
It took me years to unpack that after law school.

00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:31.920
Um, it took years for me to feel comfortable um with money again, or to believe that I even deserve to make financial decisions, honestly.

00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:43.279
I also feel I also feel that that age, uh, call it 20, you know, mid to late 20s, is like adolescence 2.0.

00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:50.160
You know, I guess your body, I guess your body's not changing as much as maybe adolescence 1.0.

00:26:50.480 --> 00:27:00.400
But you're in a really interesting spot in your life where you know you believe you're an adult, and you're really not, you know, go talk to a you know, 50-something year old.

00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.359
They're looking at you like a child.

00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:06.720
And I think it's just for me, I'll speak for my own personal experience.

00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:22.400
It was it was just a very hard time to navigate, um, wanting things to work out so badly in my own relationship, having to leave Florida to get to New York to see that through, put a lot of risk out there, put it really all on the line, and just kind of feel like I'm doing all, you know, I'm taking all this risk.

00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:29.359
And, you know, the people younger than me, I know I'm not a kid like them, but yet I'm looking at these folks.

00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.160
A lot of 20, 20-something year olds still feel like that today.

00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:38.240
I mean, God, I feel like I'm I end up with unsolicited advice to that wasn't that wasn't privy to us in our mid-to-late.

00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:40.319
I think that's any mid to late 20-year-old.

00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:42.319
That's a good crisis is real.

00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:44.400
I feel I really feel for them.

00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:45.440
I I hated it.

00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:46.480
I hated that time.

00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:47.599
I really, really did.

00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:51.920
I could tell you throughout, other than maybe actual puberty in middle school, like that.

00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:52.960
That's a hard time.

00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:53.599
Yeah.

00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:59.200
Because you're like, you thought you were you thought you were gonna have it figured out, and then you realize you don't have it figured out.

00:27:59.359 --> 00:27:59.839
Oh my god.

00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:05.200
But you are now responsible for your things and your builds.

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:06.720
And yeah, yeah.

00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:07.200
It's hard.

00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:24.079
I think I think also, generationally speaking, I presume we're all kind of in the same age cohort here, that the millennials grew up kind of being told by our parents you put one foot in front of the other, you do this, you do this, you'll get this, you do that, you do that.

00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:25.920
Doing a good job mattered.

00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:26.480
And you're not gonna do it.

00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.680
Working hard, having integrity matters.

00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:31.680
Get the degree, it'll all work out.

00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:37.279
Do the things you're told, and you'll continue to get your trophies for doing them, whatever those trophies, whatever form they take.

00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:47.839
And I think that um we realized that the rules were changing and that uh we a lot of the advice we were given was NA, no longer applicable to us.

00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:51.119
Maybe we had to figure that out on our own.

00:28:51.200 --> 00:29:03.519
And and and I really I I mean, in the same way, I that's why we ourselves have a lot of sympathy for Gen Z and growing up, coming of age in the in the age of AI and everything, and what an entry-level job is gonna look like.

00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:08.559
It's even harder for them without the appreciation of a non-digital world.

00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:14.240
Like we're the we're the last of the group to live in that space, which I think is a little bit of a superpower.

00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:16.480
But that's that's a conversation for another time.

00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:23.039
Well, I think it's interesting though, because I did want to touch on the fact that you did end up becoming like that corporate girly.

00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:24.559
You got the law degree.

00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.839
Obviously, it put a large strain on your relationship.

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:38.799
And correct me if I'm wrong in any of these details, but at one point you were the breadwinner in your relationship, and you were basically making sure that everything stays afloat.

00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:59.599
So, Douglas, you could go on this entrepreneurial journey, which again is very aligned with Brandon and I, because I'm the corporate one with the steady income and the insurance that the whole family's on and all the things, so that you know, these men that we love can go and do what they love because they don't like authority.

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.160
And they don't want to work for anybody except themselves.

00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:12.079
So walk us, uh, walk us through that because I know that that's a component of the book as well, because there's a lot of pressure in being the breadwinner, regardless of who you are.

00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:23.599
But I think there's that added notch that gets turned when you're the female breadwinner and you're really helping your partner get whatever they're working off the ground.

00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:24.400
Yeah.

00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:34.160
You know, it was an interesting time for us when I had settled into a corporate legal role and kind of chose that path in commercial insurance.

00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:38.319
I was in private practice, different law firms for a couple of years, and I really hated it.

00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:51.599
Um, you know, so it was worth um kind of making this move from a stability standpoint because when you're when you like really one, when you really dislike your job, it's like every day feels like a like you never really know what the next day is gonna bring.

00:30:51.839 --> 00:31:01.839
But also um like we we we knew that this was sustainable, the hours were predictable, but it was also going to give us the stability of him knowing I'd still be.

00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.720
I I was set in doing this.

00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:07.680
This was a job I could have done for a long time and I did.

00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:26.720
Um, and what that gave Doug was the ability to take the risks to start the firm eventually and um really flourish without the fear that we wouldn't have health benefits, the fear that we could afford, you know, there's no ceiling and there's no floor when you're an entrepreneur.

00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:28.799
So I think it, you know, it cuts both ways.

00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:38.319
But in terms of the pressure that I felt, um I felt it, but I think also like he is so assured.

00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:44.400
Again, this goes back to like childhood where he comes from this long line of entrepreneurs.

00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:51.839
And I've watched him bootstrap and use the tools at his disposal to build forever.

00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:55.519
And so I was very confident that he would be able to do that.

00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:56.480
And he did.

00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:57.359
And it was working.

00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:10.160
I mean, it's a great problem to have that it worked out so well that I went from the breadwinner to being in a relationship where my husband was earning three times my salary in just a short period of time.

00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:22.799
How that dynamic played out, I mean, it just so happens, and this is like a whole relate related thing that I think many couples find themselves experiencing is that it was also the years that I was had that I had our children.

00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:23.200
Yeah.

00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:30.480
And um, I call them the Bermuda Triangle of my career because I really, you know, we thought I was stable, you know, again, you go back to this thing.

00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:41.039
It's lockstep, you keep moving up and up, but then like you go to have children and you start to experience some of the hurdles and the systemic things that face women in the workplace who are young mothers.

00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:53.519
Um, and I think a lot of the messages that I had told myself about what my place was, not only in our relationship, but in the workplace and what my identity was as a mother and a lawyer, really got called into question.

00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:59.279
And um that was really like the start of a major dynamic shift in our relationship.

00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:00.000
You want to say something?

00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.720
Yeah, one he's like itching.

00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:04.799
He's like, let me let me say something about it.

00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:08.400
Um now I gotta figure out what it was.

00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:21.359
I think that, you know, as much as we set out and and knew that the stability that Heather was providing was to feed the risk that I was taking to build what we now have today.

00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:25.920
Um, even though we knew the goal was to, yeah, to out-earn Heather.

00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:27.759
That wasn't, you know, that was by design.

00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:32.240
What you don't know is what's gonna happen when you get there.

00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.599
And back to this thing about you think you have it figured out.

00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:40.880
This is really the moment in which, you know, all these things kind of happen at once.

00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:47.279
Now you're in a new season, and you have no idea what those, and then those feelings come rushing in.

00:33:47.440 --> 00:34:03.039
And Heather was very good at being, because she's a deep person, was very capable of identifying them and seeing what would happen if they were left unchecked to then come to me and say, Hey, Doug, and I'd be like, What?

00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:03.920
Everything's great.

00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:06.079
No, it's not working here.

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:26.559
And then I love you enough to say, well, if it's not working for you, we got to figure out how to get this thing right, because the last thing we need to deal with is, and I do not blame her for feeling resentment uh over the fact that I'm over here continuing to grow and live out this dream, and she's plateauing in her own career.

00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:30.000
And Heather is not someone who wants to throttle her ambition.

00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:38.719
Well, so if you couldn't tell, because I wrote a book on our first maternity leave, the type of person that I am, that I don't know how to sit still, I'm motivated AF.

00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:40.159
I always have to do it.

00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:41.119
She can't sit still either.

00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:41.840
I can't nap.

00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:53.119
And I had taken this corporate job and kind of built this security blanket for our family because it made sense, it was sustainable.

00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:58.000
It was kind of like me taking that defensive role for us, right?

00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.559
Like it was like so that he could run.

00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:02.880
But and it made sense.

00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:25.679
And so this is this is a very important concept in our book, not just about like the dynamics that that are constantly changing and the fluidity that that comes with life, because it made sense, but that was always with the unspoken, which was I think where we probably messed up for too long, the unspoken truth that there would come a time when I wanted the chance to run again.

00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:28.559
I wanted the chance to swing for the senses again.

00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:30.639
And when would that time come?

00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:37.280
Because in the years of early parenthood, especially for mothers, a lot ends up falling on your shoulders.

00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:40.400
And you can really, really get lost in it.

00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:44.079
And that identity crisis that you go through, I think.

00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:44.559
Yep.

00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:49.119
Especially you went from being the breadwinner to having your first child.

00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.159
And then, Douglas, your practice took off.

00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:55.519
And then it's like all these things are now shifting for you, Heather, right?

00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:03.679
Because you're a whole new person, the hormones are crazy, you're sleep deprived, you're not the breadwinner anymore, and your career has kind of stagnated.

00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:05.280
So there's a lot going on for you.

00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:05.920
And COVID.

00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:08.159
Don't forget her, don't forget a pandemic.

00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:12.320
And a global pandemic and a second child in the second child in there as well.

00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:14.079
We had two under two.

00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:17.519
Yeah, it's it just gets it just gets to an overload point.

00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.599
And you know, the dam's gonna burst if you're not careful enough.

00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.639
We talk about it is because it's like, yeah, it was unexpected.

00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:29.360
And this this disin, but that's what this is all about.

00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:36.880
Like a decision that we made years ago when we agreed I was gonna stop going for the highest earning job at a private law firm.

00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:41.280
I was gonna take this stable corporate job so that he could go out and do all these things.

00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:55.679
Um, that decision made a ton of sense at the time, and it came from an amazing place and it came from this collective idea of ambition, like my win is your win, your one is my win, which we still believe is like the way that couples should be viewing their careers and their lives.

00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:03.199
However, that only works when you acknowledge that us investing in him is inherently me making sacrifices.

00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:03.519
Yeah.

00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:04.000
Yes.

00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:09.679
And that there is gonna come a time where that coin, you gotta flip it over if that matters to your partner.

00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:13.199
You've got to be willing to flip that coin when they say, hey, it's time.

00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:15.360
It feels like it's time for me again.

00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:18.079
And I think that we were missing that nuance.

00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:28.159
Um, and you know, like life comes at you like it was no, there was no, there was never any ill will, or there was never any like nefarious decision to like keep me down.

00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:34.960
Like life happens to people, like omissions can be just as damaging to your relationship as conscious decisions.

00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:36.960
I want to pick up on that for a second.

00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:46.639
And that's, you know, whether it's the work you're doing to improve your relationship stemming from our book or other sources, or just your desire to live a better life with your partner.

00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:55.039
I think that, you know, the difficulty factor is always pretty high.

00:37:55.280 --> 00:38:00.079
And we're not asking people to be so good at this practice.

00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:06.960
And this all is a practice that you can avoid everything that life will have to throw at you.

00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:14.000
First of all, that would spoil all the, you know, amazing things you'll discover on your own life's journey.

00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:26.239
But we just want you to be in a position to be proactive enough so you don't sink your ship, that you don't put damage to your relationship, your health, your body, whatever it is that you're trying to be proactive for.

00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:38.159
So, you know, have some grace and take some of this with a little bit of, you know, space to allow yourself to step into those uncomfortable situations, but hopefully feel confident enough that you can navigate that.

00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:42.800
You can have that conversation like Heather was able to have with me at that critical moment.

00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:53.760
Well, I was gonna say that's the thing that you either get right or you completely gloss over it and then you go another year and another year and then you'll be back to haunt you.

00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.039
And it will come back and it'll cause an explosion, right?

00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:04.320
So I think there's something really, really important and special in the relationships where you can say, I'm overwhelmed, this is how I'm feeling.

00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:06.159
Hey, when is it gonna be my turn again?

00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:21.519
Like whatever that is, and it's gonna change over time, depending on your seasons of life, but I think being able to say that to your partner and then Douglas, what you said, I loved her enough to hear what she said, and then we we pivoted, right?

00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:28.000
So I know we can go into those stories in detail and we could have another 20-hour conversation.

00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:33.199
And I love that in the book you spoke to dozens of couples.

00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:35.039
This is not just your point of view.

00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:47.920
You actually were interviewing couples about all different situations, but the one thing that it always comes back to, and I really love because it aligns with our dream framework for couples to have better money conversations.

00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:50.000
It all comes back to the stories, right?

00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:54.400
Heather, you said it's it's not about the money, it's not about the numbers, it's about the stories.

00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:55.440
Where did it start?

00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:57.280
What is your money mindset, right?

00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:08.079
And I think you can learn so much from your partner when you really go back to those first money memories, what you remember about money and all of those things that really shape who we are.

00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:13.119
And so I I know that you made the pivot into bona fide wealth.

00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:17.920
So now you're a true partnership in love, in life, in in business.

00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:20.480
I mean, that's like a lot of togetherness.

00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:25.440
All the things, all the things very together, very together with Douglas and Heather.

00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:25.679
Yes.

00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:27.360
Oh my gosh, I love that.

00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.239
Self-aware, very self-aware of how this is not for everyone.

00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:30.960
We we know.

00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.400
Well, but I want to get into where this book came from.

00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:44.079
Because you guys, you're doing all the things, you're parenting, you have a thriving business, you have a wonderful newsletter.

00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:48.239
You could have just stopped there, but you needed to write another book.

00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:52.320
So, where did Money Together and the importance of that?

00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:54.239
Like, where did that fire come from?

00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:56.800
And why did you have this story to share now?

00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:12.800
It came from the humbling experience that if we, a financial professional of 20 years, someone who is educated, motivated, engaged, could find themselves in the place that we did, what's everybody else doing?

00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:24.639
Couple that with the fact that Douglas sits across the table every week from many, many couples, and he has for many years, who are not having the right conversations about money.

00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:37.760
It is clear that there's more going on when couples find themselves in conflict, and we've observed that over time, and even in your own life, in your peer circles, in our own life, um, that there was more going on underneath the surface.

00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:41.679
And um, you know, we wanted to know what that looked like.

00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:48.480
And so when we embarked upon the journey of this book, we didn't have all this figured out.

00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:52.000
This was truly a project and an exercise from day one.

00:41:52.159 --> 00:42:01.920
I want to understand what couples are really, what's really going on beneath these surface level, these proximate week-to-week bickering arguments that you hear your friends talk about.

00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:03.679
Oh, so-and-so says I should spend less.

00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:07.519
Oh, we were arguing about where we go on vacation in the springtime, whatever.

00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:09.039
Um it's all surface level.

00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:10.400
It was all surface level.

00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:19.679
There's obviously a lot more going on because I know because I lived it, and I know how hard it was for me to find the words to articulate the way that I felt.

00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:27.599
And I wanted to create something that one, make both partners feel seen in ways they've never felt seen before.

00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:33.119
Two, create some conversation openers for couples to have deeper conversations.

00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:41.280
Look, we would never put ourselves out there as saying, here's the 10 steps that you need to take, and you take them once and you're done.

00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:45.360
And you're gonna be happy forever, just by my guide, and it's all gonna be fine.

00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:46.400
If only was that easy.

00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:49.519
That was not what we set out to do.

00:42:49.679 --> 00:43:04.400
We want to help couples have greater empathy for one another, greater curiosity for respect, perspective for the joys and abundance that they already have in their life, and just be able to navigate uncertainty as a team.

00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:09.440
And and yeah, money has a huge component of all of that, right?

00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:17.440
If you, you know, like health, money, like these are things like you don't have to care about them, but they care about you, right?

00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:23.119
And I I think that we don't get to opt out, you know, of money in our lives.

00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:28.800
Um, and because of that, um, we're just forced with having to wrestle with this.

00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:35.199
Why not provide, you know, some good guidance and some great conversation starters and stories to share with people to get there.

00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:37.039
Well, and I'll I'll just throw one more thing in.

00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:38.559
Sorry, this is like one of those questions.

00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:41.679
I'm like, well, there's four million reasons why we wrote this book.

00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:51.199
Um I I I think it was really important to me for the equity and fairness component to be brought into financial conversations more.

00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:53.760
Um, I think the industry needs it.

00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.840
I think individuals need it.

00:43:56.079 --> 00:44:01.679
And this notion that time is a currency you must solve for in your relationship.

00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:05.840
It is not just the income coming into your household, it's time.

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:15.360
And who has the time to pursue their career, who has the time to pursue their individual interests and things that also support the family and how we view what it means to contribute.

00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:23.519
And I wanted to offer thought leadership that moved us in a better direction, that helps women advance in the world, because I think a lot of that begins at home.

00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:25.039
Preach.

00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:38.559
From all the you know, various couples that you had interviewed for this book, did you ever come across interviewing a couple where you just saw, like, from your perspective, like, hey, you guys are not on the same page, and I don't think you're ever going to get there.

00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:39.440
Yes.

00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:40.559
Yeah.

00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:46.320
Whether it was appropriate in the interview to get like the interviews weren't to give advice.

00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:48.639
The interviews were to gain stories.

00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:54.079
Had they been clients or seeking out advice from us, that may have been a different story.

00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:57.840
Um, but there were multiple occasions where we saw some real struggles.

00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:03.840
We saw some sometimes some bad behaviors, and whether they made it in the book or not and hit the chopping, you know.

00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:05.119
I'll get racy with it.

00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:06.960
Yeah, Heather, Heather is just tell you.

00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:12.159
There were a couple times I felt that the power dynamic was really, really off.

00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:17.920
There were situations, like where you're like uncomfortably off, yeah.

00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:19.280
Uncomfortably off.

00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:48.320
Um, and what bothered me the most and what actually um inspired the chapter about religion in the book was that I did not like when I felt a man was exhibiting financially controlling behavior, was making mistakes, was running a million miles a minute, and just was like, well, like, like brought faith into that part of the conversation in a really like disingenuous way.

00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:49.920
Like, I that's the best way I can say it.

00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:50.880
I know this is like a little racial.

00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:53.920
Like using religion as an excuse to make bad things.

00:45:54.559 --> 00:46:01.920
Yeah, that's the shield to be to not be challenged on the things that they were doing by tying it to something that should not be challenged, right?

00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.280
You can't you can't go there.

00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:03.840
Right.

00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:15.039
Like, like, yes, I did these four things and I bankrupted my family two times, but we believe there's in faith and a higher and a higher you know, purpose and a higher being, and I was supposed to do those things, and that's why I did it.

00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:18.400
All according to the But there was like no level of personal accountability there.

00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:19.760
Made those decisions, right?

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:21.199
Like that was that was you.

00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:34.159
And and that that is what that is what caused me to want to write about this hot potato, about the difference between faith and personal responsibility and how you need a combination of both to really do this.

00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:50.320
I a hundred percent understand that because I do like, you know, to everyone else, you know, your your religious beliefs, your faith, whatever that may be, I do feel as though that often as a society, we tend to use religion as a means of not taking accountability.

00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:51.840
Way too often.

00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:52.880
That's right.

00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:55.599
It's it's it's the proverbial double-edged sword.

00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:04.079
Like it either absolutely helps you take responsibility and and and find, you know, greater meaning, or uh it's the coper excuse.

00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:08.480
The truth is no matter what your faith is, how you practice it matters, right?

00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:11.039
You still have to swim.

00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:13.119
Like, and that that's what we keep saying.

00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:31.840
Like, it's it's yes, yes, and it is it cannot, it should you should not be, like you said, hiding behind it as an excuse for the behaviors that you've that you've done or that didn't work out your way, or it were in it felt in many of these instances like it also created a dynamic where their wife could not question the decisions that was being made.

00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:33.119
I really didn't like that either.

00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:35.679
It wasn't a conversation starter or opener.

00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:39.840
It was very much to close down the line of communication.

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:47.119
And you whether it's religion or anything else that causes that effect, not gonna move you.

00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:50.639
No, no, it's 99% of the time.

00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:51.519
No, it's not.

00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:52.800
There's a line in the book.

00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:58.480
Um, it's one of my favorites, and it was it's love, not money, build the legacy you want.

00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:00.320
And money isn't a team game.

00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.199
You win once, you have to play it forever.

00:48:03.679 --> 00:48:13.119
If you, aside from people needing to buy your book to have better relationships with each other and with their money, what would you leave our audience with?

00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:20.719
And I know it's a lot of that conversation and communication, but if they got anything out of your book, what would it be?

00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:22.880
Build a practice around this.

00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:25.280
It's it's not a one and done ever.

00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:29.679
And if you do it too infrequently, you're never going to get to the result that you want.

00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:34.639
Build a practice around the type of conversations, reviews, we call them money dates.

00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:36.079
You can call them whatever you want.

00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:40.239
There is a formal setting in which Heather and I sit down, not just to go over numbers.

00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:43.039
As a matter of fact, it's probably the worst place to start.

00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:49.280
So you get in with your goals, you do it at a time and a place that works for everyone, activities you love to do.

00:48:49.440 --> 00:49:02.719
Start with your wins, not with your losses, and then do this every quarter, every however often, probably not too soon, to where you don't see any meaningful change and not so long apart, that you actually don't build any consistency.

00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:03.840
Figure that out.

00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:19.920
Do this for years, years, and you will find that you have a rhythm, you have a cadence, you have a forum in which to really get there with your partner, not just about what you spent your money on, but where you want to go and the risks you're willing to take.

00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:22.320
I'll be a little less prescriptive with mine.

00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:22.800
Okay.

00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:34.079
Um I I I don't I want everyone to realize that they are still their own person and they deserve to be seen for all of what that means.

00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:39.039
When we talk about fairness, we talk about making room for your spouse every day.

00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:46.559
And so I just want to leave people with the idea for the idea that they should always feel empathy for their spouse.

00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:56.480
They should always be curious about them, they should always want to know how they're feeling, they should always want to know what they want in life and whether they feel like they're getting it.

00:49:56.639 --> 00:49:59.920
Um, and if not, what can we do to make more room for you?

00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:03.039
Because a great relationship is yours, mine, and ours.

00:50:03.199 --> 00:50:07.760
It's not just one conglomerate mushball of the two of us.

00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:12.400
It's it's who we are as individuals and the power that we have when we come together.

00:50:12.559 --> 00:50:15.519
Um, so I that that's where I would leave people.

00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:17.360
Absolutely love that.

00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:23.360
Where can people find you, Heather and Doug, as a team and as individuals?

00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:24.079
Sure.

00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:33.199
So if you're interested in learning more about money together, you can go to do moneytogether.com for anything having to do with our firm, that is bona fidewealth.com.

00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:40.800
And of course, do not forget to subscribe, subscribe, or subscribe, that works, to our weekly newsletter on love and money.

00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:43.679
That is the joint account at read the joint account.

00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:45.039
Wow.

00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:46.079
Wow, no, read the joint.

00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:47.039
It's a Monday, guys.

00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:47.760
It's a Monday.

00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:49.920
Read the joint account.com.

00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:54.400
And as and as individuals, I'm really fun on Instagram.

00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:55.440
I have to say.

00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:57.280
Average Joel.

00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:58.159
That's my middle name.

00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.519
You're so far from average, but it's a cute name.

00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:02.320
Thank you.

00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:05.840
And and he's Doug Bonaparte everywhere on social.

00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:06.880
Come get a laugh.

00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:08.880
Come get a laugh from Come get a laugh.

00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:12.079
Thank you guys so much for being with us, for sharing your story.

00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:17.280
And this beautiful book, which we discussed at the very beginning, matches my outfit, matches my office.

00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:19.519
Great color screen scheme.

00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:20.400
Color scheme.

00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:22.239
Wow, we are all struggling today.

00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:23.440
This has just been too much fun.

00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:24.000
We can't even talk.

00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:25.280
I know.

00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:26.719
Thank you guys for being with us.

00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:28.400
Congratulations on the book.

00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:29.360
Much success.

00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:34.239
And the next time our double date needs to be in a restaurant and not on a podcast.

00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:34.800
How about that?

00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:35.920
100%.

00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:37.519
It's a date.

00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:38.079
Perfect.

00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:38.800
We can't wait.

00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:39.679
Thank you so much.

00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:40.559
Thank you.

00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:46.239
Don't forget, Benjamin Franklin said an investment in knowledge pays the best interest.

00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:47.760
You just got paid.

00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:48.719
Until next time.

00:51:49.039 --> 00:51:50.719
Sugar Daddy Podcast Go.

00:51:51.199 --> 00:51:53.440
Learn how to make the pockets grow.

00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:55.840
Fundamental freedoms where we grow.

00:51:56.320 --> 00:51:58.239
Our investments, money flow.

00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:00.719
Thanks for listening to today's episode.

00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:03.760
We are so glad to have you as part of our Sugar Daddy community.

00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:12.000
If you learned something today, please remember to subscribe, rate, review, and share this episode with your friends, family, and extended network.

00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:16.320
Don't forget to connect with us on social media at the Sugar Daddy Podcast.

00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:27.519
You can also email us your questions you want us to answer for our past the sugar segments at thesugardaddypodcast at gmail.com or leave us a voicemail to our Instagram.

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